SmartTranscript of Senate Health and Welfare - 2025-05-01 - 11:30 AM

[Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Alright. The health and welfare is back, and we are looking at h two thirty eight, our PFAS bill. We have a number of folks who are interested in speak providing testimony today from which is related to h two fifty, the fire I call it the firefighters bill on PFAS, firefighter equipment. So our time is limited, and so what I'm going to do is to ask folks to testify who are on the list. And we have ledge council here who is also listening. We also have Matt Batten who is here, who has sent in some language agreement with interested parties. I'm not sure that we'll get to that thing, but we will get to it. So thank you all for being here. Great. Good to see you, firefighters. My first question of you, is there anyone here who represents volunteer firefighters? Yay. Good. That's good. I wanna know we've got a balance of testimony coming in. Mhmm. The folks I have down to testify are just raise your hand when I say your name because I don't know you all. But Dean Gilmore, that's you on your first and then David Debias. Debiasi. Divyausi? He's up there. Are you also a volunteer firefighter? [Michael O'Grady]: Yes. He's the chief of city of Virginia. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Okay. And do we have do we have folks from the professional firefighters here or not? Mhmm. And you are? [David DiBiase]: William [Michael O'Grady]: Lalibert. William Laliberte. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Okay. Well, we'll put you also up. So we'll hear from Chris [David DiBiase]: Newman just thought he [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: was Chris has been the one testifying on your behalf. Okay. Thank you. That's fine. Alright. So, Dean, why don't you come up? And do we have written testimony from you? [Michael O'Grady]: I don't think. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Most of [Michael O'Grady]: this could have been the chief [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: David does have some. [Michael O'Grady]: And Cindy. Okay. Okay. Alright. Good. So Okay. Well Thank you for giving us some time. My name is Dean Gilmore. I'm a past assistant chief from the fire department a firefighter with the city of Virginia Firefighters Association as their governmental affairs committee chair. And we're here we we our goal is not to stop the ban of PFAS, but to slow down the firefighter gear thinking until we can have more data as to the safety of here that is going to take its place and a toss to that gear. Our our our our safety is our main concern. Got it. That's I'd like to turn it over just to to Marcy. Okay. So, David? David. Yeah. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Okay. David, welcome. We didn't introduce ourselves, and we will, at some point, do that, but we're kind of crunched for time. So I'll make sure we hear from you before we introduce ourselves. [David DiBiase]: Thank you, madam chair. So my name is David DiBiase. I'm the chief at City of Regents Fire Department as well as the second vice president of the Vermont State Firefighters Association. Can you hear me well? [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Yes. We can. Thank you. [David DiBiase]: Perfect. So thank you for your time here today. And I and I wanna just echo Dean's sentiments. This is, I think there's been some dialogue around the volunteers are not in support or they're otherwise, have some concerns. And we do have concerns, but I think the concerns are more that today's day today, we don't have the knowledge or understanding of really the benefits or, the downfalls. And maybe there's none of each, or maybe they're just, hopefully there's benefits. Right? That's what we're here for is to find benefits. But there are concerns, and there is certainly been feedback to the volunteer side around what does this mean for us. And and as I think you all know, the world is tight when it comes to financials. And certainly our volunteers, depending on how many pancake breakfast they need to put on in a year's time to be able to afford gear to stay compliant today with a ten year NFPA requirement of gear switch out is very, very difficult, if not impossible for many. I know that at least with Virgin's, we're more fortunate, and we do have a municipal budget because we're a municipal department. And even at that point, we have a really tough time replacing gear at the at the timetable that it needs to be replaced today. And again, to say these things is that I don't know, and we don't know today with the research that's ongoing if there's a change in longevity. And I'm not here to argue or otherwise say that there is. I just think today there's a lot of uncertainty to the facts of what do these changes really mean for the fire service and certainly the volunteers. And And what does that kick down the line for either a financial or a wearability standpoint of things that we just don't know today? So I think the volunteers are asking for more time and more understanding of what we're looking at and what these items really impact us on a day to day level. And Cindy has the technical expertise. That's not my my my, my background, but certainly the voices that we're hearing from the communities both, in Addison County and the state or are that what does this mean? It's big and scary. The information is not out there yet to really understand the impacts to us. So I appreciate your time, madam chair. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Okay. Thank you. And, Art, have you looked at the most recent draft that we have, draft two point one, that talks about manufacturer's notice regarding PFAS and equipment. [David DiBiase]: I'm trying to look to see which version I've looked at recently. So I'll take a look, and we'll review that. Thank you. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Okay. Michael, do you wanna just share with folks what is currently in the draft? I mean, that may influence your thinking on this. It may or may not, but I think it's important that you have the most recent information. [Michael O'Grady]: Well, the current law is not a ban on PPOS and PEEs. It's a requirement that the manufacturer provide notice to the purchaser so that they can make an informed decision. You were then adding stationware to that notice requirement. But then in section ten, you are prohibiting PPEs and stationware that includes heat loss, and that will go into effect July of twenty twenty nine. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: So there's a stepwise. You your your request is to slow things down. So I think this that what you're hearing is between twenty six and twenty nine, the manufacturer would notify your fire department about gear, should it contain PFAS. And then at twenty nine, that would kick in the the ban for the those things. So just so that you're responding to that specific information. [David DiBiase]: Yes, madam chair. And that is that was my understanding. I I think the notification is fantastic. I think the timetable just could adapt with the research of the ongoing understanding of what the impacts really are and not fully understood yet to even put a kind of a sunset date of when we ban this item in in the in the fire stations today. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Okay. Thank you for that. Alright. And can we get your testimony in writing? [David DiBiase]: Absolutely, madam chair. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: That'd be perfect. Okay. Thank you. Appreciate it. Okay. So who is up next? [Michael O'Grady]: I'm gonna ask who you're doing this. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: I'm Lacey. Go ahead. Hi. [Cindy]: I am the president of the Firefighter Council Foundation. Family is originally from Vermont. I'm actually retired from a fire service in Maryland as a career firefighter. I have served as a both a state and national lobbyist for firefighter health safety issues. Forty years fire service, thirty six years as when the original local research was into firefighter cancer. I now reside in Castleton. I'm a member of the Castleton Volunteer Fire Department. I'm also a contract employee for your state fire academy, helping to serve for health and safety and creating our new programming and health and safety moves, again, to benefit our service and hopefully and create longevity of health and safety and service for our folks to our communities here across the state. Have watched, very intently for fifteen years, the transitions of PFAS in our world, where it's been through firefighting homes, what's been through general products and consumer goods that we're exposed to on a daily basis, whether it's in our firefighter gear. Members of my team and my nonprofit is actually on a multimillion dollar study with NC State, Unwriter's Laboratory, FSRI. We're the only nonprofit on that study currently in stage two. And we've actually developed a new toxin research process that's being added to the NFPA standard for toxin and smoke particulate identification. So that's to the level that my team and I are currently working. We are grassroots, and we're five zero one c three. And none of us draw salaries. It's a complete labor of love because we're that passionate about what we do. Folks on my team are both career and volunteer in service. Many of them are dual depending on where they are in our nation. And then globally, I have a chapter in Australia. We have folks throughout Europe, throughout the the South American countries, and then other countries that work with as well to monitor not only research, but helping to mentor and improve where they are and create better baselines for the fire service globally and learn from each other. Biggest concerns I have currently, our science is not adding up. It's not agreeing, and the scientists are not agreeing as to where the PFAS we we know where the PFAS is and isn't. We don't know where it's entering into the body specifically, into what level it's entering into the body specifically, and that research is currently underway. Well, it was underway until our research in the CDC and NIOSH were just told to stop working. So we now have lost an important part of our validation process of our scientists. And and so, you know, NC State, Unwriter's Laboratory, University of Illinois, all these different organizations that are taking the lead in our our national US studies basically have have really browned down to a snail's pace because they're lacking their validation steps. And this is IRB research, recognized research to meet both US and global standards. We're very sympathetic to what you're saying. So with that in mind, we and because we yes. We we believe that PFAS should be banned. We also are looking very closely at what is there to replace it for what it does. We don't wanna burn firefighters up and send them in the fires unnecessarily for extended periods of time with years inadequate to properly protect them. We also don't want them to die of cancer. We shouldn't have to make a choice. It should be, well, we're gonna kill you this way or kill you that way is really what it comes down to. So how can we be smarter as as not as consumers, but as members of this wonderful state of Vermont, but also responsible to the taxpayers and communities that we all serve in how we're gonna proceed with this. The the science that we currently have, yes, it's showing PFAS and firefighter foam is connected to very specific cancers. Specific latencies are now showing up. You have a hundred and seventy scientists that are signed on not only that class class action out in North Carolina, but also the class action on the PPE out of South Carolina. We're watching that closely. But, again, as we're moving through, it depends on which compounds we're being exposed to. Everyone in this room is is probably walking around with some level of PFAS in their blood. You know, we got a lot. The the question is which compounds and which diseases potentially is it going to cause, and how do we perform proper and response medical monitoring for that? That's where we as a state need to be as well. With regards to the gear, I just came off our our largest national North American conference two weeks ago. There is currently only one option for the vapor barrier that is PFAS free. It is it is manufactured by Milliken out of South Carolina. It is passing the current burn testing. That current burn testing, however, only goes to six hundred degrees. Your average fires are burning much hotter than six hundred degrees. So we still don't know to what level all this gear is going to continue to last based on wear and tear, based on cleaning needs, based on other chemicals that these firefighters are exposed to during their their daily service. The the other challenge is as the PFAS is removed, now the outer shell is also becoming more vulnerable to retention of all these other chemicals that we do know cause cancer that has been documented already. There's a list of twenty of them already that we track and tracked for many years. And last couple pieces, the the outer shell currently has reduced from a seven to eight year garment to a three to five year garment currently based on NFP studies, Washington standards performed by a number of these universities that are supporting, this work. The concerns that we're hearing from both sides of the house, both volunteer and career, are an understanding from the chief level of how does this new gear change with regards to heat loss affecting permeability, resistance to evaporative testing, and breathability. We know that some of these new gears are actually causing increased cardiac insult to our firefighters. And this has been studied by doctor Denise Smith who's out of New York along with a number of other key docs from around the country. So we have data already showing that these issues are already present for left heart hypertrophy and other issues coming from firefighting deer in addition to cancer. The last question again, thickness of the fabric. And then thermal protect performance really has little to do with the PTFEs and the non PTFEs. We have a huge education curve with our fire service here and, obviously, with with all of you at this level. From a budgetary standpoint, all of the gear companies just dropped their orders from a different vapor barrier that was failing to the Milliken barrier two weeks ago. So this is how quickly all this is evolving. From a budgetary standpoint, we can't even begin to project what our costs are gonna be for the next six months as of right now. I can tell you on a positive forefront, there is a company coming to manufacture here in Vermont that's coming from France to actually manufacture both PFAS free hoods for the firefighters, which will have the full nanotechnology barrier as well as a membrane that could be used for that textile for that vapor barrier and such depending on how successful they are. And they're due to start manufacturing, I believe, September, October here in in Newport. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Oh, in Newport? Yeah. Terrific. Is that [Cindy]: for sales throughout the country? It will be. Nice. Yeah. Right now, Milliken is the largest national supplier, and they're the largest one of the largest national research foundation organizations supporting, obviously and they have literally hundreds of patents that that could be reapplied to various aspects of the fire service. What's the name of that [Michael O'Grady]: company, you know, sir? [Cindy]: I'll email it to you there [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: there. That'd be great. And do we have your testimony? Money? And I'll pull I'll pull a [Cindy]: short perspective for you. Together. Absolutely. Absolutely. So same thing. We we do believe absolutely in a ban of of PFAS from the the goods and and and such that we can and in a responsible fashion. Also very concerned, obviously, about our our retail tax base and how it's gonna affect all of our other industries that support our services for the state police and fire. So those are those are the key concerns. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Well, thank you for your testimony. Really appreciate it. And now we've we've gotten two sides of the coin here, and we hear you very, very much. And I know there's a lot of interest from the professional firefighters to move this forward, probably faster than what I'm hearing you folks say. If if there were language in here for so for example, the language on manufacturers providing notice. Is that something that I totally understand. Absolutely must work work with the We wanna keep that in no doubt. Period. [Cindy]: No. Thank you for that. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: So but then on the the timeline, it's right. Currently, it's twenty nine. Right. So that's a three year period. Two and a half year period. What is it? I'm I'm looking at everybody around the room now. We've got professional and volunteer. Let's just hear what you wanna say about that. I'll start with you. We'll go to Jitra. Yeah. Yeah. Brief briefly, I can tell you the the all the companies are working as quickly [Cindy]: as they can from an r and d standpoint to try to come up with the DWR alternatives, and we're seeing more things come to market also. The the question is, how are these new chemicals going to affect us as well? We know from the firefighting foam that what replaced the PFAS is actually another compound that does cause cancer. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: So it's cardiac with modern chemistry, isn't it? [Cindy]: Exactly. Exactly. Is the fix worse than the issue? And that's something that we have to be really cognizant of. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: So just to just put to go [Cindy]: over the date of twenty nine. Twenty nine could be could be I mean, the the fact that Milliken has has made the progress that they have, the fact that we have international companies wanting to come to our state, I I think there's enough positive on the horizon that that could be feasible. Okay. Normally, from a legislative standpoint, do you have kind of a sunset clause or an out clause if, say, we're not at that point of having adequate choices or from a budgetary standpoint, you know, with regards to purchasing the gear that is going to be safer and healthier. Do you have recommendations on how you're looking at addressing that? [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Okay. Thank you for that. Thank you. And then, Chris, did you wanna comment? Yeah. Yeah. [Chris Newey]: We can make a couple of comments. You want me to do it from here? I'm gonna see. So Chris Newey, professional firefighters in Vermont. I don't agree with some of the stuff. So I I gave you a a written thing. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Yes. You did. [Chris Newey]: K. So the twenty twenty eight, I don't think is unrealistic. Mass is doing this January first of twenty seven. We'd be eighteen months after them. I put in there that I think it could be an unintended consequence of extending this out more than the twenty twenty eight. One being that there's manufacturers in this in this region that made fire gear, but they could be sitting on bolts of this material, and they could do a quote, I'm not pun intended, a fire sale to offload this to departments that aren't currently mandating the removal of PFAS. I think that there's been we go back and forth on science. I know, you know, statistics, you statistics. Every research out there, PFAS, all comes the same conclusion. It is nasty stuff. It is killing us. There's ten thousand compounds out there. We can only test for a hundred. So you think about it, and you're right. Scientists are always finding, hey. We've got another chlorine molecule. Now it changes that. We can't test for it. So I like I said, I'd advocate that you keep the time frame with it's we'll certainly be later than mass in Connecticut, anywhere from six months to eighteen months. Mhmm. The industry is changing rapidly. NFP nineteen seventy is going into effect in September. It's gonna make it easier for companies to have PFOC free products out there. A lot of you there's manufacturers out there. Hartford just bought all new units. The outer shell is PFOC free. That's still the inner layers due to that Teflon similar material they use for the vapor barrier. With the new testing, it's gonna make it easier to come up with products that don't have to be PFOP free. So they don't test as an ensemble. Remember I said last time, they do three layers individually. A a a flame test or a ultraviolet test on something that's never gonna see flame or ultraviolet light is what our concern with the on the IFF is that let's test it as it's intended to be used. So I'd advocate to keep change. I don't wanna see the unintended consequence of blow manufacturing saying, hey. We're gonna sell a bunch of gear fifty percent off. We got it. And now Vermont's flooded. So that's my biggest thing with that. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Okay. Thank you. That that's good. So nothing like having two sides of a sides. We we get it. We understand. We appreciate everything that you said. And we're gonna have to take this under consideration as we go through the bill again and talk with our legal counsel on this. The fire sale issue is I didn't hear you, David. [David DiBiase]: I was just so hoping I could get a comment in there as well if that's possible. No. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Go right ahead. Give your give your comment. [David DiBiase]: Yeah. I I would wonder if the committee would be amenable to a revisit of this in the next session. Right? I I feel like putting that language in there today or somehow clause to Cindy's desire of we revisit if there's an off out of session committee or the fire academy charged with gathering this information and coming back with a recommendation next session. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: I I I you're you just caught you you got ahead of me there. [Michael O'Grady]: That's a [David DiBiase]: I'm sorry, madam chair. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: That's no. That's great. It's great. We'll we'll consider that as in part of our in our discussion. We certainly don't wanna put firefighters in jeopardy. One of the things that we've done in the past in here is to ensure that PFAS and other chemicals are not affecting firefighters with we know the cancer rate is high, and we don't want especially lung cancer. So we will we will consider the comments that you've made and appreciate them very much. If you can provide them in writing, that's that's the best way for us to consider them. [Michael O'Grady]: Right. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: And I know that my my firefighters in my community are very interested in this. They've been helpful to me in the past. Thank you. And I know some of the folks in Capleton and Virginia, so it's good to have you both here. [Cindy]: I think this Sunday is international firefighter appreciation. May I have So thank you. You're welcome. Firefighters. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Thank you, Cindy. Welcome. Yeah. [Chris Newey]: I need just one quick comment too on price. So I just recently spoke with Vancouver because they switched to it. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Okay. [Chris Newey]: The price is essentially the same. [Michael O'Grady]: Okay. [Chris Newey]: And I know the fire chief in this state just got a price quote, and I think there was a hundred, hundred fifty dollar price difference. Now I don't know if that's due to the PFAS free or just the natural from what he got last year, just the natural, you know, cost increase. But it was, like, a hundred and [Michael O'Grady]: fifty dollars difference. Okay. It was Wow. Vancouver. [Chris Newey]: Vancouver. Yeah. I'm waiting to hear back because San Francisco went to it. I'm waiting to hear back what their cost was, but Vancouver might so I talked to the beauty president of that, and she said it was the price was negligible. It was, like, almost the same. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Thank you. So where would these be? Well, if they're gonna be made in Newport, Vermont, and who's inviting this company to come to Newport, Vermont? Maybe it is a benefit. Vermonters can reschedule from that. I Who would create jobs? Negotiating with this French company in [Cindy]: I don't know. I'm I I had my my team is currently doing background on the company, and we've reached out to our our folks over in France to to further And that [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: reached out to the AC the the community develop the the development folks. Wonderful. Folks in the state. [Michael O'Grady]: Part of the EB five program that they started up in that area. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Oh, it's part of that. [Michael O'Grady]: No. I don't know that. I want to [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: though. I hope so. [Michael O'Grady]: I've actually spoken within, like, excellent. I didn't think they were in New York, but regardless days, they're already they're already here, but they need equipment for various [Chris Newey]: students. They haven't [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: tariff if it should be. [Michael O'Grady]: That's That's [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: what I was talking about. Although although state. Right. [Michael O'Grady]: At the time, the the head of them say they're they're pretty confident that regardless of tariff, they'll get the equipment, of course, the costs. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: We we want we want that company to negotiate with our local firefighters for a reduced cost. [Cindy]: Well, the the lead so I actually the lead scientist sought me out and and literally chased me down for half a day in Indianapolis at the conference two weeks ago, and and we had a two hour meeting. So Good for you. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Her [Cindy]: her husband is actually a physician, who and they're planning they are looking at an affiliation for his work, hopefully with UVM. So we're kind of getting a a two per benefit with this, both medical community and coming to benefit, you know, our our labor workforce. So, but I'll as I get a profile for them and I'll expedite what we pull, I'll make that available to you all as well as part of my report. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Perfect. [Cindy]: As well as what we're looking at from both the domestic and international options and kind of their timelines. Because now that we're two weeks over that conference, everybody is settled back into work mode, and now we can find out the rest of the story of of the true picture of of the PP industry and where they're going next. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Cool. Thank you. Alright. This has been a great day, and I I really have enjoyed having you all here. We'll we'll look at the bill with ledge council and make make improvements. It could be that that last section ten gets changed so that we'll have have the group get together and bring us some recommendations. If that can happen sooner than later, that would be awesome. [Michael O'Grady]: Mhmm. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: And then we also need to hear from ANR and Matt Chapman who's been doing some work outside of committee on the intentionally added definition that would be helpful. We'll get we'll put you on the agenda very quickly. I was gonna use French to the Swiss. Yeah. So let's do that. But thank you all, and we're gonna we're gonna call it a wrap for today. And we're going to [Michael O'Grady]: Thank you very much for your time.

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SmartTranscript of Senate Health and Welfare - 2025-05-01 - 11:30 AM

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