SmartTranscript of Senate Health and Welfare - 2025-04-25- 9:12 AM

[Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: And you're live. Alright. So health and welfare back on April twenty sixth, and we're going to go through a a new draft one point one of h two thirty eight for the budget council. Michael, how much are you doing? [Michael O'Grady]: Good morning. This is Mike. I apologize for the delay. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: No. We apologize. I just did. [Michael O'Grady]: So you when I was there last, you asked for certain changes to the bill as passed the house. Do you want me to just walk through the changes? [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Yes, please. And I just so folks know this is where we are. We're ready to finalize the bill. We have some fine tuning to this draft, but we're at the end of testimony required. Okay. [Michael O'Grady]: Well, the first change is on page one, line eight. I added reader assistance, indicating that the subsequent sections are for concerning PFOS and consumer products because later on, you will add language related to PFOS and personal protective equipment for required. That's the first change. Second change is on page three in the definition of intentionally added. You have the discussion about the language that came over from the house and how the attorney general had requested language after consultation with ANR that would have changed that language to regarding water and the product or PFAS resulting final product because of the use of water. Have you changed it to the attorney general's request? So PBAP shall not be considered intentionally added on the basis of water use in the manufacture of the product if the water use in the manufacture of the product was from the public water system permitted according to the public water supply chapter four. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Do you do you mind putting the top on the screen? [Michael O'Grady]: No. I thought it was [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: I'm thinking about people who are out there. Did we decide on that micrometer? Alright. Did we decide on that micrometer? Yeah. Which language? The we published state of the right, remember. I'm not sure how all of this decided on that language. [Michael O'Grady]: Oh, here is that language. Yep. There on the screen. There there's [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Perfect. Okay. Perfect. [Michael O'Grady]: And then the second way to qualify if you were not a public water system, you are a water source that does not violate the maximum contaminant levels per PFAS established in the rules adopted by ANR and the public water supply chapter. Should I move on from that change? [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Yep. I know it's different, the drinking water standards. [Michael O'Grady]: They are the drinking water. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: They are the drinking water. We're talking about the. [Michael O'Grady]: Well, moving on to the next change is on page eight. In the list of those products that consumer products with PFAS in them that will be prohibited. Remember when you enacted the prohibition last year, it was for residential rugs and carpets. But when I restructured everything in the house, I left out the term residential before rugs and carpets, and this is just to correct my error. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Oh, can you move me? Sure. Thanks. Okay. Thank you for saving us another one word. It's a business. We're not really What are we expecting them or what? [Member Sam Douglass]: Yeah. We do have all the time. Four times. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Or one number. Today's just one number. We've had one slider of one number, and now it's one [Michael O'Grady]: So moving on from there on page eleven, in the previous language, there has been a proposal to prohibit the sale, offer for sale, distribution for sale of floor native containers or consumer products in them them beginning in twenty thirty. But you gave the attorney general the ability by rule to authorize certain containers or consumer products in or in any containers, and it was a currently unavoidable use. And then you define what currently unavoidable use would have been. The attorney general asked that that be removed. They indicated that if you're concerned about the availability of products or containers with fluoridated or, of course, alternatives to the fluoridated container that push out the date for this deadline, and they consider or they contemplate that there will be suitable alternatives in twenty thirty two. So you move that date for the prohibition on the manufacture sale, offer for sale, distribution for sale, distribute distribution for use in the state of Florida treated container or any consumer product in a Florida treated container from twenty thirty to twenty thirty two, struck the AG's authority to adopt by rule, exceptions for parent and animal's leases. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Okay. Another question with you, chair lines. [Member Sam Douglass]: Yeah. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: We can talk about possibly doing a report in seven. We decided that's that. And may interrupt. Not good. I don't know what's for this. That's where I put the note on that. Okay. [Michael O'Grady]: So you do have you do have you did change. You did. That's the next change. It's on page fourteen. Remember that ANR is reporting back on how states withdraw regulatory programs based on the definition of PFAS that you are using And just making how they are implementing their programs, obstacles, costs, recommendations of whether Vermont should adopt a similar program. As part of that report, that's going to be it's going to address whether other states have prohibited or restricted the use of flooring treated containers, including the summary of how flooring treated containers are used or allowed or produced in other states. Thank you. Got that. Moving down into section five. This had previously said just the title of section just it said reports added PFAS and complex durable goods and food because that's what these reports address. You may remember that those reports come back in twenty thirty three because of the basically, the deadlines in other states for when these products will be regulated. P plus is supposed to be regulated. He wanted to update, basically, check-in. And so you'll see at the bottom of page fifteen, the Secretary of Natural Resources shall update you on the status of the regulation of key fobs in complex durable goods and in other states. The first report comes in twenty twenty seven as part of the report required under section four. The second update shall be provided as testimony to the committees on or before January fifteenth twenty twenty nine. I will note that the report on food is coming from the agency of agriculture, but the update is coming from the agency of natural resources. So in twenty seven to twenty nine. That's because the report in section four is an ANR report and not an agency of ag report. I just wanted to note that that even though the final report on PFAS and food is coming from the agency of agriculture, the updates on PFAS and food in twenty twenty seven and twenty twenty nine is coming from [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: So is there a way to integrate those things? Does that make sense? [Michael O'Grady]: Well, I I I I leave it? Raise it because I I knew Matt was gonna be here, and I knew Matt could respond whether or not they'd be willing to dictate or [Member Sam Douglass]: I I mean, yes. I I think you can either say or I will check-in and consult with the agency of agriculture, food markets before those check ins, updates, stuff. Okay. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Okay. We'll just leave it as it is. Sure. Okay. I don't know. We don't wanna confuse the world. Moving [Michael O'Grady]: on from there, the next changes are you added h two fifty related to peace class and firefighting agents and equipment to the bill. The first edition is the definition of stationware. In those definitions related to PBOC and firefighting equipment. Stationware's uniform shirts and pants worn by firefighting personnel in the performance of their duties, often underneath personnel personal protective facility. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: So we have heard since this from emergency management as well as the volunteer fire fires that there's some concern about this language relative. I know there's professional firefighters have asked for us to integrate h two fifty into the bill, but then we've heard from others that this might be a little accelerated. And so, Kami, I I I think we should think twice about this one and perhaps ask for a you know, our the fallback is what can we put in here, and what could we ask for some information back from the agency of natural resources after consulting with emergency man management and as well as the other interested parties, professional firefighters and the volunteer firefighters. [Michael O'Grady]: Well, there's there's two components of of this of this, and and the two components amend the same section. First, it amends ninety let's say twenty four ninety four s, which is the current notice requirement because currently, you do not currently, you do not ban PFAS and PPE with firefighting equipment. You require the manufacturer or retailer to provide notice to the purchaser of the present so that the purchaser can make an important decision. You added in section nine stationware to that notice required for that. So it's it would not just be for the personal protective equipment. It will be for the stationware that the that the firefighters wear. But then in you also amended that same section to go into effect in twenty twenty eight to ban in firefighting equipment and stationware. And that that is July of twenty twenty eight. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: And this is the [Michael O'Grady]: That is, I think, what you're hearing input on from other avenues. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Yeah. Very definitely. Very not. I think, I'll share your notes. [Member Sam Douglass]: Yeah. Yeah. I got a lot of calls from my volunteer because I have all volunteer departments as they can't afford to keep the new unit in here now, and they're buying used gear. That's it. [Michael O'Grady]: So it's Yeah. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Well Yeah. So that's the system problem that we have in the state that we need for this. Yeah. Used gears wouldn't be over here, but the new stuff. This would be just the station gear is like the blue headlight shirts with the badge and blue Yeah. That was my other question. [Michael O'Grady]: Yeah. Yeah. I do wanna note that this isn't a prohibition on use. It's a prohibition on sale or distribution for use. So whatever the current volunteer departments have, they will continue to be able to use. But at some point, when they need to replace what they have, they would be replacing it with p plus three equipment. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Okay. So we should think about that. But we've still we've well, maybe we're hearing from our volunteer folks that that that they're not understanding the language specifically. Sarah, go ahead. Well, I'm also just wondering if either here or at a later date, we have to put in some kind we're gonna mandate this, you know, put it in appropriation for the volunteers to be able to afford legal equipment. It they really are at a disadvantage. They can't afford, so they're running around in outfits they know affords them. Yeah. So the solution to that Well, it's funding. No. I know. There will be money. [Member Sam Douglass]: But, basically, there are basic services. So so Yeah. Easily to the money. But this is just notice. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: It has Well, the same on here. The other thing is people first. We're we're not in the notice section right now. We're Okay. So, Michael, just take us through beginning with the notice section and then go to this one again so we have clarity on what we're just [Michael O'Grady]: So currently, in what you enacted last year, you require a manufacturer or other person that sells firefighting equipment to any person, municipality, or state agency to prod provide written notice at the time of sale citing to the subchapter that the PPE contains PFAS, then you will see on line eleven that you were adding stationware. So if that manufacturer is selling PPE or stationware, but they will have to provide written notice of PBOCs and the bat driver. And the written notice includes a statement that the PPE or station where contains PBOCs and the reason PBOCs are happening to allow the purchaser, the volunteer firefighter, or others to determine whether or not to make that purchase because of the need. And then the manufacturer person selling the PPE or stationware, the purchaser of the PPE or stationware shall retain the notice for at least three years from the date of transaction. Three years is the statute of limitations for claims in Vermont, and that's why three years is often the retention period for redness. So that is the notice. Section ten, again, in twenty twenty eight, would amend what you have just amended, would strike the notice requirement, and provide the manufacturer shall not sell off or for sale, distribute, for sale, or distribute or use in the state, any PPE or stationery to which PFAS have been intentionally added. But then you've had an exception to that. In sub b, the prohibition under sub a shall not apply to PPE that is a respirator or a respirator protection equipment. You heard some input testimony at the last review of this bill about how some respirators still have PPE, have PFAS in them, and are integral to to firefighters. But then there's also testimony to put that there are alternatives that don't have PFAS in them, and, ultimately, state vans like this will drive other manufacturers to move PFAS. So that's that's the that's the dynamic here. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Okay. So the day twenty eighth I mean, it it seems less concerning to me as I look at it now. The concern from the volunteer firefighters, I'm not sure that they're looking at what is the language that's here in terms of manufacturers being responsible or having an alternative. The question would be the date of twenty eight and whether we move it out to twenty nine. It might be more amenable to move the ball. Go ahead, senator. Since Okay. [Michael O'Grady]: If if we do it all, I think, because of the date, it's a necessity. [Member Sam Douglass]: I also like to hear how expensive versus current gear that the alternative gear would be. Is this great that there's that they're gonna offer alternatives to push that? Mhmm. How much are those tires gonna be? Anyway That's the reason I [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Like, enter And I don't know if anyone is capable of making that prediction. Certainly, everything is gonna be more expensive. [Member Sam Douglass]: And this my my volunteer guys work really, really hard. They care Yeah. A lot of the early selfless, and I think they wanna care more about putting on fire to save people than they do themselves, which is sad. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: It should have to make that sound better. Enough. There is an appropriation to that. Okay. Alright. So, again, let's let's be listened for now and hope that the communication can get out about exactly what is here. Then we'll hear back perhaps from emergency management and our volunteer and professional firefighters on the languages here. [Michael O'Grady]: You have one additional change? Yes. And and that is in the effective dates. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: So I think what if I think unless we hear I hear differently, can we put that date out to twenty nine instead of twenty eight? Sure. So [Michael O'Grady]: it's. [Member Sam Douglass]: So [Michael O'Grady]: you will see that effective date on page nineteen, line thirteen. That would change from July one twenty twenty eight to July one twenty twenty nine. Okay. And we'll [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: we'll look at that. The alternative to this is to have a report back, I think, from ANR in conjunction with the emergency management folks. So we'll we'll have to hold that on for this one, but we'll come back to the bill next week pretty early. Sure. I'm terrible. Nothing I knew about it. Alright. Large I was just can't wait to be on the floor with this one. So With my noise. [Member Sam Douglass]: Are you in boarding today? [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: There's a couple of things. No. No. No deal. It's just That's correct. [Michael O'Grady]: So the next change is in the effective date for cookware. The house had took testimony from representatives of the industry who asked to push out the effective date from twenty sixth to twenty eighth. And the date. You have asked to move that date back from twenty eight to twenty seventh. Okay. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Okay. It's nice to meet you. Alright. Alright. Questions for Michael? So I know we've had a lot of discussion on this bill. But, senator Douglas, go ahead. Questions for Michael. Go ahead. [Member Sam Douglass]: Yeah. Remember, last time, you guys will be mentioned, the Polaris and their, and that they think falls into juvenile products. ATVs and other recreational vehicles are really big in my district. So I'm a be a little [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Oh, you want that? Etcetera. But you wanted to [Member Sam Douglass]: ask Yeah. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Michael Craney about Yes, sir. Recreational vehicles and which I think is covered somewhere. [Michael O'Grady]: So I think what the question is is whether the definition of human eye products is broad enough because of how you're An ATV that's marketed to a child under twelve years old. Today. Where? Nelson. So I I guess I don't know. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: But remember remember when we were doing that, we took out automobiles, and and I'm looking at the the. The. [Michael O'Grady]: It took [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: there was a week. Or do we do that with DECA? I'm trying to remember. [Michael O'Grady]: You you did that with DECA. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: We did it with DECA. [Michael O'Grady]: What you any anything that moved, basically, including Yes. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Ships. I bet Ray helps me laugh. Right. [Michael O'Grady]: So what I think you would do here is in the excluding clause let let's let's actually go back. The scope is it's a product designer marketed for use by infants and children under twelve years of age. I don't know if they're marketing to under twelve years of age. Possibly. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Maybe. [Michael O'Grady]: And then if they are, should be clear, you would want to ex list them under the exclusion. And I would probably have to have a separate subdivision because the current solution is about electronic products and the fact that they're effectively but it it also adds adult mattresses at the end. It's a little it's less. You would probably add heaters and mattresses. Yeah. Okay. You would probably wanna add and I've I've I've restructured this little bit. So for clarity, you'd you'd add it there if you wanted to exclude it. Okay. I [Member Sam Douglass]: suppose I could try and send and invite you to email too, [Michael O'Grady]: and then we can see. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Well, I mean, we're diving into another area, so they may wanna [Michael O'Grady]: So so there is a definition of all terrain vehicles and title twenty three. We just cross reference that definition. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Yeah. Let's see. Certainly, if a lot of kids play with little vehicles code with PFAS. Yeah. [Michael O'Grady]: Well, I don't think it's [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: probably that I want a kid under twelve driving. I don't know. I just think of the same thing. I mean, I was there's all see them advertise, you know, mini cars that kids can That's what I was thinking of. Yeah. Mini. That's what I think. You're talking about an actual ATV that would go out on a trail? And is it because we talked about there's things in the motor, but then the steering wheels are handle you know, something that the child would be coming into regular contact with. We've been because we've excluded things like the internal workings of computers and Complex. Durable. Good. Yeah. Yeah. But not if you're actually holding it. Right? Touching it. Yeah. Nice. If you're a certain age, you might chew on it. Right? Think so. Kids are good for you. Things that you've not Yeah. Definitions. [Michael O'Grady]: I need to acknowledge them. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Should we be a child part? So I'll tell you what, this is an issue that Senator Douglas and Provenox and Lacroix maybe have. Michael, any thoughts at this point? [Michael O'Grady]: Well well, matches from the side says it's the same definition of definition of children's products and then chemical supply concern to children chapter title eighteen. Yeah. Whether or not ATV is something reporting under under that. They have not. They have not. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: They have not. [Michael O'Grady]: Yeah. Okay. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: I'm not interested in anything in enabling under twelve on the eighteenth. Actually Yeah. Hold on. What I would say Feeling it's I think somebody's on the safe side. [Michael O'Grady]: So, you know, why don't I put a a placeholder in? [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Yeah. [Michael O'Grady]: And you can the next draft, you can empty because I'm sure you're gonna receive input. You can you can [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Yeah. Let's do that. Let's put a placeholder in and then have that conversation with folks on that. Yeah. This this has come up with things that are used on farm farms. Farm vehicles. Yeah. Yeah. And ATVs are used on farms. Uh-oh. They clip these. They I think I'm very interested in being. [Michael O'Grady]: You you're gonna have to test it. Sure. You you might have to take a look at a couple of definitions because there are some things that you think, like, well, the definition of ATV and that they may not. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: And maybe you need for anything as well as concerned in your area. Where is where are the PFAs in that vehicle? [Member Sam Douglass]: They they weren't pretty. Specific. I think it might be the textiles, like the, like, seat covers and stuff like that. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Right. No. That's how Exactly. When I got the phone I think. That's exactly what Okay. Chips. It's like the the seat covers in automobiles and the the cover on the dashboard with that one. [Member Sam Douglass]: Just [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: What what do you mean? That Once you've intentionally added or over another party, Yeah. [Member Sam Douglass]: And it's it's not something that, like, if these vehicles are used for a very, very long time, it's not like people ripping off the cushion every year, throwing out the new ones off. [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: It's not that, though. It's that it leaches out onto the people sitting on them, and it gets on the clothes, and it gets in the environment, and it gets in the water. That's the whole point. So maybe what we should do I still think we should go back and just pay and PFAS outright right the way other states have done, but we're compromising right now. It's hard to compromise. This stuff is nasty stuff. We don't want it out there causing cancer Oh, what? And other things. Four years banding. I mean, this banded out right. Yep. Baked? Mhmm. Really? Yeah. I mean, why don't we wait? It's just awful, awful stuff. So I'm just hand them all about putting it out on cushions on the front porch. Really, honestly. Ridiculous. Don't get me started on this one. I think what we're doing here is a very measured approach to a different interest that we've heard from, and we're doing it, but we're not gonna keep measuring ourselves into oblivion. Sorry. Sorry. I didn't make you at this entire time. Anyways [Michael O'Grady]: It also prevents the agency from having an anxiety attack about [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: Okay. I like that better. [Member Sam Douglass]: Yeah, the budget that you [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: And I said, I don't want to a day journey with Smith's. We do it on that. Right? Yes. Okay. Alright. Well, let's let's hold it here for now, and we'll come for it. We have this money agenda for next week, I think, pretty early, and we'll come back to it. And we really are ready to finish our bill to do a vote a month ago. So And there are alternatives. Oh. Yes. Correct. I don't think I see that. Alright. Go ahead. [Member Sam Douglass]: So when you filter when people are gonna be using carbon filtration or other filter methods, we're then [Chair Virginia "Ginny" Lyons]: I'm gonna I'm gonna suggest that we go offline, and you can talk here. And then because we've heard this one before.

Play Clip Play Full Video Pause

SmartTranscript of Senate Health and Welfare - 2025-04-25- 9:12 AM

This is useful for seeing what happened at the meeting without wading through the whole transcript: