SmartTranscript of Senate Economic Development - 2025-02-07-9:00 AM

[Chair Alison Clarkson ]: You have forty five minute Oh, god. That's a really fun. Yeah. But you've got to hook a lot of people with you. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Yeah. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: And then at nine forty five, we're gonna here. Okay. Matt and John. You're good. We are on. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Good, John. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Yeah. So welcome everybody to senate economic development housing and general affairs. It is Friday. Is it the seventh? It's part of the change. It's the seventh. Yes? Is it the seventh? Yes. Welcome. And it is just great to have Frank Poppy back in our committee. It's just Frank Poppy, it's just great to have you here. And we have some new committee members since you were last here. And so we're missing two of them at the moment, but hopefully, they'll arrive. I we could just go around the table. And then if you'd be kind enough to introduce your team, that would be great. [Member Thomas Chittenden ]: We know each other. Tom Chittenden, and everything we should in Southeast. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Yep. And We do. Do. But for the rest [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: of the team who don't know, us may, act. So after Thomas [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: we're introducing ourselves. Good morning. I know Frank. I've done Frank for a long time. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: No. Me too. It's like his team. A lot of team people here. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Right. So I'm Keisha, southeast, and it's not a majority leader. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Now it's in Carson Laser District. Randy Brock, Franklin, [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: and part of Randolph. Eight weeks, Welding County. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Great. And Frank Hoffa, your team. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Okay. Great. Great coffee. I worked for GBIC in my twenty ninth, thirtieth year, I think. A while. This is Veronica Iredale, and she's interning with us from University of Vermont. We're really lucky to have her. She's done a fantastic job. We try to have between six and eight interns every year from Middlebury, UVM, and the state colleges. So we Vermont State University. So and we've had a great team of folks. And my associate, Alex Demley, is here. Alex is a Middlebury grads. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: We've seen it, Alex. Sorry. It is good to be with you. [Speaker 4 ]: Fucked away in the back. Sorry. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: That's okay. You shot my back. That's okay with that. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: And then we've got the great help of Matt Koda here as well, helping us with government affairs. We also we've got a couple of special projects this year. So together with the RDCs, we have Patty online, Andrew Berger helping the Regional Development Corporation. Sorry. And then GBIC has contracted with DRM, Patty and Becky Landowski to help with focus on housing initiatives for those with intellectual and developmental disabilities. I'll get into that in a little bit, but it's kind of an area that Yeah. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: We're gonna [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: I came to my daughter passed away around nine years ago from opioid addiction issues, and I adopted a little boy who was two and autistic. So I had the joy of going through life with him and learning the challenges that that he faces both in school and in community and just thinking for I'm not young, so I have to I have I I was a dad at sixty for the second time, and it's the coolest thing ever. But [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: You were young at heart. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Yeah. Yeah. Now I just gotta keep moving. So we we're kinda looking at long term different housing options for people with intellectual and developmental disabilities. So it's kind of a which you have passed through for a lot of us, and I joined with a lot of friends. I'll I'll get into that in a little bit. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Good. Because that's Yeah. Definitely on our housing list of private stuff. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Thank you for that. Let me tell you a little bit about GBIC. So Vermont, as you well know, has fourteen counties, but we have twelve regions for land use and transportation planning, and the regional planning commissions cover those areas. And they work with the municipalities. And then we have twelve regions for economic development. So GBIC and Browborough were created in nineteen fifty four, and Rutland County Economic Development is our first economic development organization in Vermont. That was in, like, I think, nineteen forty six. And at the time, the where Vermonters work was changing. We're losing our textile mills. So the state had a real strong focus that emanated out of the regions to create economic development entities that were partnered with municipalities and with the state to really focus on recruiting, manufacturing jobs into. So we were created in nineteen fifty four by an act of the legislature. It was an initiative headed by the mayor of Burlington at the time, which was mayor Moran, and it was a collaboration of municipalities and people from the private sector, the the community, basically. The chambers of commerce, people wanted to focus on economic developments. So I had the good fortune of I'll back up here. I I worked in this room in my junior year at UVM in the legislative council. I think I was one of the first interns. And this is where I met governor Snelling, who was the house minority leader at the time, and I was very liberal democrat. And we we didn't see the world the same on a lot of things. And then I got to start working with him and saw how brilliant he was and his focus on land use planning, economic development. It was unbelievable. So I was assigned to Michael Bohoski, who was a freshman legislator in the House Committee on Education at the time. So I spent two years [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: He was younger than you. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: He was older than me. Yeah. Well, he was older. His I was at UVM with his brother, Paul. And Paul and I were friends. And there was a guy named Joel Sherrington who was heading the legislative council, so I was assigned to him. And Bill Russell was here, Ed Miller. Those are probably the names. Miller. Yeah. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Boston truck. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Yeah. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: That Ed Miller. No. He Different techno [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Our lawyer attorney. I think he ended up doing a [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: lot of the bus. Yeah. Yeah. The bus industry. Yeah. And [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: and Bill Russell retired, what, eight years ago or so. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Yeah. Oh, no. Or in the back of eight eighteen. Bill Bill actually and this [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: is we've had several heads of large councils that was built. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Yeah. That was fine to be writing Veggie with senator Lizzie and Michael Wasser who's in the tax department. We had Dan Smith and Bill Russell together in the final days of the session up in Bill's office just taking away, sealing what you wanted, and then trying to translate that into You want [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: to see what's happened to Bill's office? It's now a committee room. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: I'll get to You should go [Member David Weeks ]: take Yeah. [Member Thomas Chittenden ]: Before you go. Yeah. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: We'll get to look. So, anyway, GBAC Greater Burlington. Greater Burlington Industrial Corporation. We basically go by GBAC. Went through a branding exercise probably twenty years ago saying the industrial age was ten ages ago. Maybe we should change our name and then [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Maybe it's coming back. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Everyone knows knows us, so we just go by GBIC, really. But we work probably our closest partner is the Chibbe County Regional Planning Commission that we work closest with. You'd probably see Charlie Baker a lot. The Charles. He's focusing on housing issues, transfer property planning. Together with Alex, we work on our comprehensive economic development strategy. We're now in a, what, three four county? How many counties? [Member Thomas Chittenden ]: Four county. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Yep. Okay. So it's Lutland, Chittenden, Addison, and Washington are a SEDS area now Alright. Which is really good. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: We have not had a SEDS meeting in our neck of the woods in a while. Yeah. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: I don't know what's gonna become of EDA, but it's always been tough for Chittenden County to get any money for for from EDA. So, you know, time time will tell how those resources go. Well, GVAC started focusing on the building of industrial parks because at that time in the fifties, there really weren't industrial parks. So we worked with the municipalities to and the state through federal money and state money to build the infrastructure necessary to basically capture pieces of land that were close to town centers, not in town centers, but close enough and close to transportation accesses and build the necessary water, wastewater infrastructure, the roads, and the rail was important like in Saint Albans where I'm from. There's a great industrial park in Saint Albans town that is right on a rail line. It's point eight miles from the interstate. It's perfect perfect location. And that was the origins of of GBIC and Bralboro and Rutland to focus on those areas. Through the years, more economic development corporations started to be created. Governor Sandman was really instrumental in that, and then governor Snelling rounded it out. And he wanted to have regional planning commissions and regional economic development corporation. So I actually had the privilege to run Franklin County Industrial Development for two years when Snelling was governor. And he what we were recruiting industry from Germany, Montreal, and Toronto were our primary areas, and to watch him focus on recruitment. Like, we were focused on industry sectors and then did deep research after who we were going after. And I'd say a lot of the companies that he recruited over the years are still here. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: What are what are some of the key ones? Just [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Well, Belen, Val, Bombardier had a a big presence here. The chocolate manufacturer in Saint Alban, Swiss one that he had a major role in recruiting. Well, There there's a bunch of others. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Right. In the middle of the day. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Yeah. And he also had a a strong focus on entrepreneurship and then knowing that it's more likely for a small place like Vermont to grow your own. And so innovation and entrepreneurship. So he was very supportive of Burton Snowboards. We helped create Burton Snowboards into the company that they are today. We recruited IBM into Vermont with the help of the governor of the time. And we actually owned an industrial park in Essex, and they came in and bought the whole industrial park, and then they were up and running. So our, you know, our focus in economic development, we're kind of purists. We're not a chamber of commerce. So we're purely an economic development organization that's focusing on high wage jobs for working Vermonters and their families. That's our primary goal and our mission that requires us to work with key employers. And so we're focused on employers who have the profile being dollar importing, goods and services exported. So if you make a product, add value to the product, or you perform a service and add value to that service, and you export that product or service out of Vermont and bring the first dollar to the Vermont economy, then you are a key employer for us. And when I started doing economic development, twenty six percent of our labor force was in manufacturing, and today it's, like, ten percent. And we're still higher than the US, but just by, you know, a fraction. So there's a lot in value added services now as well. So we do not focus on tourism per se because we have an affiliation with the Lake Chamber who had [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: whole house with you. Right? Yeah. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: We we're we're located in the same building. We wish regional planning was in the same building as well. It'd be so great if they were. But we have a regional resource center that we bought in Burlington. It's an old armory, and we dedicate the place really to be a a center for economic development. So we have the whole ground level is donated to government entities and nonprofits that are associated with community and economic development. So we have Vermont Manufacturing Extension Center there, the Vermont Small Business Development Center, whatever PTAC is now. What's their name, Alex? PTAC and Silver Eagle. So they help they're they're based out of Department of Economic Development, and they help Vermonters and Vermont companies and employers access state and federal contracts. And then the Small Business Development Center has a counselor there who's working with small businesses. And then we have, bunch of meeting rooms for, folks who can have any need economic development. We also have Vita in the building, and that's their Burlington office. It's in our building. And then Molly Gray brought in the Afghan Alliance in in our building, and they're helping those who are new Americans and immigrants that are coming in. She's running a really dynamic program there. And then the Lake Champlain Chamber and their tourism division is doing the building as [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: well. So [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Is the Council of World Affairs still there? [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: They are there as well. Yep. The chamber has a lot of affiliates. So, you know, in in some ways, we're we're kind of in a period that resembles when I started in economic development. We don't have much industrial land capacity anymore. So when we built industrial parks as a state, our focus was to pretty much treat them as land banks. So land banks were high value added economic development activities. So to give you a case in point, GBIC's last industrial park that we built was Canada Industrial Park in Milton, and that was in nineteen eighty three. And we still have two lots in that park that we could have sold thirty years ago, but we've kept them waiting for an employer that's going to be a value added employer. So Chittenden [Speaker 4 ]: County is [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: a little bit more expensive to buy land. And So that's precious. So it it really is. So I you know, when I look at the economy, my region is Chittenden County, but when I the economy doesn't know geographic or political boundaries. So the northwest Vermont economy is fifty miles from the center of Burlington, and it captures Franklin County, Grand Isle County, a little bit of, Lamoille County, a little bit of Madison, a little bit of Washington. And we're interdependent. So we probably immigrate ten eleven thousand people, twelve thousand no. Twenty six thousand people a day. We out migrate a little bit under ten thousand. So there's a lot of people from Franklin County coming in, and we send people from Franklin County. There's a lot of people from Chittenden County going into Washington County working state government, national life, in Waterbury. So it's you know, there's a lot of inner relationships between the counties, and we work really closely with all the other regional economic development corporations and our strategic partner, the Vermont Agency of Commerce and Community Development. So we do have a contract with the Agency of Commerce and Community Development and Department of Economic Development to basically do their programs and services in our county the same as all the other regional development corporations do. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Right. When you when you hear about industrial infrastructure concerns, do you still hear, like, three phase power is an issue in certain like, what what do we need to do to ensure there is industrial infrastructure in [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Well, I I we gotta take a long view. Like, the governor had a program last year, Riddick, that was really good because it was focusing on expanding industrial areas throughout Vermont. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Mhmm. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: And so it was a really good step forward. And what it's the the goal of it was to increase land capacity or build infrastructure [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Mhmm. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: In areas around the state. I really think both in housing and in economic development, we're almost, like, sixty years ago. Yes. So, like, in even in housing, in the sixties, my parents built a ranch house in Saint Albans, and the municipality put the road in and the water in the sewer. And that was what was going on in the fifth forties, fifties, early sixties. And then in the seventies, we kinda changed in Vermont, saying, you, developer, put in the the roads and the water in the sewer, and then we'll take a road over. They used to take the road over in a year. I served as a member of the board of select persons in Saint Albans Town for six years. I did it concurrently with three years in serving as economic development commissioner. So those of you who've served on city councils, you get a kick out of it. You're dealing with this during the day, and then you go home and listen to dog fights and everything. And then I and we we didn't even have a town manager and say, oh, that's at the time, which is entertaining. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: So can I just tag on to Keshia's question? Because I love the idea of industrial parks as land banks for our economy. You develop you developed the industrial parks. You did water and sewer in them without tips. What right. So what was the mechanism you used to develop water and sewer at that point? What was the We got a lot [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: of state and federal help. There was a lot of state and federal help. Like, the municipalities couldn't do that without Right. State and federal help. And costs were, like, a fraction of what they are now. Like, we were selling an acreage in all the RDCs were basically selling acres of lots in industrial parks for, like, twenty five thousand dollars an acre. Now we can't even fill it for two hundred fifty to three hundred thousand an acre. We can't buy the land, go through the permitting process, get an infrastructure. And so it's Right. We've gotta kinda take the long view. I know the governor's looking at this from a, you know, a longer view as how we build more capacity. Right. We're not gonna attract massive manufacturers here in Vermont. The, you know, the cost of doing business here is higher because it's winter. You know? We've got a smaller population in the way manufacturers operate now. Center prognost. You you know, you're looking at if you have a a manufacturing facility in North America, you may have one or two. And then you'll have distribution centers. So you have North America, South America, Europe, Asia. It it's it's very different. But for entrepreneurs, that's where the majority of our Yeah. Big actually entities. So beta technologies, Burton Snowboards, Rhino Foods, the Chocolate Planet in Saint Albans. It goes on all cabins. You know? Look around the state, and we've been very successful at growing our own. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Well, we're but we're an economy based on entrepreneurs because every farmer with an entrepreneur. We had a very successful small business Wednesday two weeks ago, which we we there were a bunch of takeaways in terms of how we can really continue to support our entrepreneurs and small businesses. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: So What are you hearing about fulfillment? I mean, I think of, like, Skeeta and Kareem Prepo and, you know, like, she one day, she might have her own large facility. But in the meantime, she has, like, boxes all over her office. So she's trying to, you know, get [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Well, it's amazing launching a company like that grow from being a local Right. Putting to be a global, [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: you know Yeah. Global charge. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Which is the story of entrepreneurship. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Yeah. Well, she started like a student out. You know? [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Yeah. So [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: It's what our focus in entrepreneurship at GVSC, we can't do everything. So we have to do the nuts and bolts. Right? Right. And fulfill our contractual obligations to the state. And so we I personally spend a lot of time on the Vermont Center for Emerging Technologies. I helped found it with doctor John Evans, who was dean of the med school at UVM, and Fred Hackett, a former businessperson in Vermont. And we went to the university and wanted to create a technology incubator. You did. Sorry. One second. There's one Nope. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Yeah. Wait. I popped on and off. So sorry. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: So we're we're very involved with the Vermont EPSCoR program, and that's how National Science Foundation money comes in to the state of Vermont. So that's a collaboration between University of Vermont and Vermont Big University and Norwex, Champaign. So it's pretty it's pretty pretty good affiliation. So it you know, I'll talk about industrial land. I'll finish up on that. As we move forward, we really need to look at that as a state on building more. We need housing. We need land for industrial. The state's done really well focusing on downtowns and building centers. Can I ask so [Member Thomas Chittenden ]: I know you're a No? No. No. No. No. Corporation, but what's come up a couple of times is how when we look at excess capacity, especially in housing with the Rutland area, my friend Dave Weeks across the table from me here, it seems like would you speak to any opportunities down there for more industrial parks? I I know you spoke about Saint Albans built in Juneau County that beyond your wheelhouse, so to speak, but do you see economic opportunity growth in industrial parks in that area? [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: I'd say every county Yeah. Should have a strong inventory of infrastructure, industrial land. And we work together as a team. Like, when when a prospect comes into Vermont, they go our protocol is the governor and the secretary of commerce and the commissioner of economic development need in recruitment, and we support them. We sell Vermont. When they tell us where they wanna be, then we represent our regions. But we're part of team Vermont. So we sell Vermont. We don't care where they locate [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: as long as they come to Vermont. Yeah. [Member Thomas Chittenden ]: Prior to that, transportation has come up. So interstate eighty nine, we saw that there was somewhat of a recognizable pattern, and it seems like Rutland can, in some ways, be seen as a transportation desert. Do you know if that's on your radar at all? What major transportation initiatives to get more growth? And I'd have to defer to Charlie on that or Alex in terms of our Certainly, [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: as as you as you said, transportation is a key piece in terms of access for industrial park. So the transportation piece is key to I mean, we have a Randolph industrial park that is quite a distance off the Yeah. Off of eighty nine. We have one in Springfield and I think a couple in in Rotterdam, and they're they're not that close to any major hub except Ford. And so [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: My problem is I know the history of what we did and what we didn't do. Yeah. And it's now you can only look back. Right? So you can learn from where where Snelling's model was, he brought planning, economic planning, and land use planning into the governor's office. Right. So, yeah, land use planner and an economist. Jeff Carr was a young economist working in his office at this event, a colleague of mine from IBM. And his philosophy was to build industrial around interstate or high highway interchanges. Right. So I'll give you an example, and then I'll close on this. In nineteen eighty three, GVIC could have bought all the land where So the inf the the infrastructure was there. We had to wait almost, god, fifteen years to get wastewater infrastructure into Milton. Yeah. So that you know, that's a big role. I was at Franklin County Industrial Development when we were building the Saint Alden's Town Industrial Park, and we were very thoughtful about the location of it and its capability of connecting to wastewater infrastructure that was very close by rail, electrical, natural gas. It was In Canada? Yep. Yes. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: So it's full, right, as an industrial park? No. It's not? No. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: It's I think it has seven more lots. Tim Smith is the director of Franklin County Industrial Development. He has done he and his board have done a phenomenal job. And they they have an industrial park in Petersburg, in Swanton. There's a dairy park in Georgia. We work to help that dairy park with our foreign trade zone. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: So as, you know, as you know, your first priority housing, we're working hard. I worked hard for the last two years. We've gotten some great great pieces through industrial parks. What would you suggest we do to further fill and or, I mean, is there an ask you have of the legislature that we or further just support the resource of the industrial park? [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Yeah. I I defer to to secretary Curley and commissioner Goldstein, but if the the program had five million dollars, if there's money to recapitalize that, it would be really good to do that. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: So recapitalize it before. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: And just, you know, let the regions tell you what they need. They they know. Yeah. You know, like, we know there's very little industrial land capacity left in Chittendly County. Yeah. It's because we can't afford to do it. When you're land banking it, you can't turn it over. Like, you could probably I I almost wanna watch my computer [Member David Weeks ]: today. Not [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: a horrible [Member Thomas Chittenden ]: material. No. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Just just so everyone watching at home knows why. That's okay. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Did well. I'm fine. Yeah. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: So right. Sorry. Keep going. So how [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: housing anything you can do to improve housing, thank you. Thank you so much. And it is it's well, thank you for serving, taking times out of your lives to to do this. I know what it requires, and you could all be doing a lot of other dynamic things. So it's really meaningful as a Vermonter to to see you do this. And Brandon is a question. Would there be anything that you'd ask us to stop doing? [Member David Weeks ]: I have a whole bill. I'll have to [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: think of that. I have to do that since March. Yeah. Because the legislature always tries to help, but there's times in which Yeah. [Member David Weeks ]: Help is not useful or there [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: are other things that we ought to be doing. And so if you do think of something that we should repeal, something that we should stop doing, something along those lines, that would be helpful to know. Thank you. I'll I'll give that some we hear it a lot. We don't have a lecture time. Yeah. Yeah. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: So Thomas Thomas has one, and then Do you [Member Thomas Chittenden ]: think we should have an exit to the city, to Bolton so as to get to have more access to that land? [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: If we could afford to do it, it would be nice. If if the community support it, then the community support it there. There's [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: there's another question. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: And South Burlington can get some too. It would be incredible. Like, we I work for governor Dean during the CIRP highway and certainly had a difference of opinion with him about how that ended. We should have built the CIRP highway because we got gridlocked in in Chippewa County, but we didn't. So can't replay that. A couple of other things I wanted to talk about, if if I may. One and these are passive projects. So I started with our initiative to help those with intellectual and developmental disabilities. We put some money to and organizational help. So our whole office team is, on our own time, is helping this wonderful group, primarily amongst Mhmm. Of adults with intellectual DHI. Yeah. And and then we helped so we're working also with Michael Monti of Champlain Housing Trust, and he has a son with autism as well. So he knows this, like I do, you know, raising a a child with autism. And, you gave funding to the last year. And if you can do that again, I guess the governor's gotta recommend in here. Yeah. Of course. That would be incredibly meaningful. We've got a lot of catching up to do, you know, as a state, but I'm really optimistic. You know, there's a lot of people working together. There's great folks in the agency of human services. Anybody working with people with disabilities has been just great partners. So thank you for whatever you're doing. And my last area I wanna talk about is comes from the heart. That and and the chair and I have worked on this together for the past fifteen years. Workforce when I look at workforce development, it took me down to education. So we started first encouraging all the institutions of higher education to create internship programs, co op programs that are involving everyone at the college and university level to try to get to know Vermont employers so that we can try to retain some of them. Yeah. So all the leaders of of the institutions for higher education in Vermont embrace that. We then wheeled to pre k. And we really, as an organization, we basically said, we don't have care how much it takes. Like, that is the best investment that we can make because we're so poor. There's so much poverty in Vermont, and it's an economic level that hurts. Then we went from there to to the high school experience. And that is where we've hunkered down at GBIC for the past twelve years is focusing on when fifty percent of your graduates of your high schools in Vermont go on to nothing. You're you're gonna hear John Pisey Galli talk about what the trades need. And I I commend the Pisey Galli family for their initiatives. Like, they are they didn't sit back and wait for a solution. They're they're doing it. Jumped right in. Yeah. Right. So this started, like, twelve years ago. I said to one of my colleagues at at GBIC, I'll have fifty percent of those who go to high school go on to NEPIC and find that data. So we did, and we started working with VSAC and with the state colleges to really look at that those numbers because those are potential feeders to Vermont State University, to UVM, to all our institutions for higher education. DTC. [Member David Weeks ]: So the data show [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: that fifty plus percent don't go on to anything or they drop out in three semesters. And I can tell you from having a daughter that had opiate addiction issues and died from it that we own them and they own us. And they're the ones that stay in Vermont. And if we do not find meaningful curriculum for them, we're gonna pay for them socially, forever. So if we have curriculums that focus on career, technical, vocational, curriculums and, honestly, I don't care who does it or how they do it. Because a lot of times, Ramon, we get lost in the governance, who's doing it, how it's funded. Let's step back from there, and let's just do let's find a way to do it. Today, we have seventeen career technical education centers. Three are independently, geographically separate, and fourteen are co located with high schools. So I'm a parent in Colchester, and I have two places I can send my child if my daughter wants to be in applied graphics or an LNA or my son thinks he want might wanna be a carpenter or in manufacturing, then first, their schedules have to line up. They can go to Burlington Technical Academy or Essex Technical Academy. And then if everything lines up, then they can only go full time if they're a junior or senior. And then Colchester loses eighty six percent of the education money to send them there. So there's no incentive for the pollchester or any school to give up that student. And it it just it you have to understand from the high school's perspective, their costs are increasing. Their enrollment is declining. This is going on statewide. This is something we need to get around. I know you're looking at education this year. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Well, no. But, I mean, we've invested in that. The the whole CTE plan has been being worked on that for three years. And the APA you know, we we have this proposal, and it's in some ways the the governance structure that's being proposed is is I it's it's gotta work out together, but we you know, you're hitting on the reason that we funded that that planning work. And we desperately need to introduce, as you know, you've heard me at CTE at a much earlier age, let our ninth and tenth graders get really excited by this work so that they don't drop out. That's our other thing I haven't mentioned is the dropout rate, which, you know, if you have kids dropping out at sixteen without without something for them to do, without being excited about something to do, we're really in deep doo doo. And we have we so we have to get them started earlier, and we have to get rid of this artificial loss of finance. We have to unite that financing in significant ways. And that they've got proposals on how to do that, and that's all been put a little bit on hold for a bunch of different reasons. But I if you haven't read that study, you should read their [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: I know the last pilot was done during the pandemic. We did three. Yeah. Yeah. And that probably was not [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Out of that case. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: As comprehensive as it could because I understood the only entities that submitted were the three independent ones. Independence. Right. Yeah. So I don't care how we do it Yeah. As long as we do the curriculum Right. Or who doesn't. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Yeah. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: The curriculum is vital because our Vermont workforce needs those people. Yeah. And we owe them the tools to earn a meaningful income. Like, they're gonna live here in Vermont. We need them in the workforce. John will talk about the trades. Like, try to get a plumber. So [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Yeah. Exploit them till they get Any [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: idea. Because, [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: like Go ahead. We are so lucky. Early on, when governor Scott first came in, I was chair of the workforce development board, And I said this I had a conversation with him, and I said, this may not this may sound weird, but our transition to a new workforce is retirees. And I look at our own office. We have some young people, and then we have sixty percent of our team is over sixty years old. And every single one of them has skills that are irreplaceable. Some of them are doing what they did before. We contract with a lot of people. So, you know, I think anybody who's aging decides, well, I don't wanna retire. They retired for a couple of years ago. This is boring. And and then they haven't saved enough. So we need them to help us be that bridge. Well, [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: I hope we will continue to work together on the state workforce development board in its new configuration and with its new chair in our new office of workforce expand strategy and expansion strategy and development. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Thank you for sticking with it because it's really, really important. Well And having legislators involved in it is really important because it lets you see from the ground level what is going on. And that though that's a huge board Now it's much reduced. [Member David Weeks ]: Yeah. You you got you got [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: to see the different sectors and Yeah. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: I do wanna I was talking to senator Harrison this morning who's chairing institutions, and we need to be thinking about the same thing for correction. It's they're huge campuses. They they have lots of idle folks who Yeah. Are have are down on their luck, you know, and we've stopped creating a pipeline for them [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: back into the work force in a lot of ways. Well well, we didn't know, for example, in Springfield. Remember when they built the road instead of building the the career and technical education center? That they lost big time on that. Big time. And that [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: certainly an opportunity. That's for sure. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Thank you. Thank you [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: so much. I guess I did use the time. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: You're welcome. Come back at any time. It's great. Can I can I ask two things that Yeah? Like, are on my radar? And I don't know if someone is laser focused as you said smelling about those certain things. Airports and a convention center. [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: I they like, is somebody laser focused on those two things? [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: I I know the regional planning commissions have been very focused. Agency of commerce is really focused. Governors had a a strong focus on airports and getting the maximum out of the airports regionally. Yeah. So I trust that he's doing good work. He he is doing good work about that. Yeah. The other question? [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Convention center. You and I worked on a convention center for [Member David Weeks ]: fifteen years ago. I'm on the UVM board. Yeah. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: And I stayed on that board because we haven't completed the Terrence Center, and we need to complete the Terrence Center at UVM. Like, I've been on, in the past thirty years, on probably ten different commissions Yep. Looking at convention centers. Yeah. They don't really make money, so you have to have an anchor. Yeah. An anchor can afford to keep them going. Mhmm. And it's a college or university. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: But do you think if it was are we do you is anyone talking about where it would be physically located? Right? Because Hula has a big thing going, South Burlington has a lot of the works. Sure. Are is someone focused on, like, where is this going to happen? Because [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Well, UBM, there's twenty million dollars invested in it. Right. Nine million in the ground. Six to nine million in the ground. Drive down Spear Street and look near the Aiken Research Center. There's four million dollars worth of fabricated steel sitting behind a chain link fence. [Member Thomas Chittenden ]: Center. The the convention center, it's gotta be the waterfront or the welcome block. Right. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: I you know? So I don't know how many we can do. Like, it's we have the Champlain Valley Fairgrounds. Rutland has a wonderful fairgrounds. Franklin County had the field days. Everyone has their areas. We gotta look at it with a Vermont focus. Yeah. Right. So [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: So more to follow [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: on that. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: I think that's a wonderful thing to continue to focus on. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Thank you so much. Alright. Thank you. As [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: always. For you. And wish to see you soon. Lovely to meet your team. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: I have I have a DDH training whole bill section. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: So Thank you. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: I'll email Marla about [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Oh, Marla. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Do it. But Incredible. I got you. Yeah. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Thank you [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: so much. I'm glad you're doing that. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Thanks. Good to see you. [Member Thomas Chittenden ]: Yep. Great. Dogs before you leave. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Yeah. I'll I'll go out. That's great. Coach down. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: So we are gonna continue and expand on our workforce. And, Matt, we invite you and John up if you wanna present together, if you wanna go first, however you can [Speaker 4 ]: me go out there. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: That's fine. And stay close to Frank. He's a great mentor. Well, dear you, Rob. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: I'll try. I'm gonna [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: take me off furlough. A mentor with [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Thank you [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: so much. Bye. Goodbye. Great to see you. [Speaker 4 ]: Yes. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Yeah. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: What do you need to do, Betsy? Right. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Yeah. So we're gonna pivot to Matt. Alright. Matt must have met everybody around the table. I think Yep. [Speaker 4 ]: Oh, yes. Yep. [Member David Weeks ]: Okay. [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Great. And, anyway, introduce yourself. Welcome. It's wonderful to have and this exciting new piece of work that you have invested so much of your time in the party. [Speaker 4 ]: Well, thank you, madam chair. It's an honor to be here and it's an honor to be here with the committee. I've known you all for for a long time. I think I've been coming into this building, sitting in these chairs for ten years now and had a couple of different acronyms. My new acronym is ABC. Cool. So Associated Builders and Contractors is a national trade association for commercial construction, with sixty seven chapters across the United States. The New Hampshire, Vermont chapter has around two hundred and ninety members, and we're currently growing. We represent members all over New England, Vermont, and Canton, Maine, as well as Massachusetts. ABC members participate in a merit shop philosophy, and what that is is it starts with withdrawing people. And and by the employer's understanding that the most valuable asset that they have is the staff that's out there in the field actually working, it's it's on them to help build those individuals. It's by offering them well paying jobs, good outcomes, and good benefits, and safety, and working ethically with them, but also creating pathways for them to advance their their skills in the profession. And that helps them not only increase the individual's abilities, pay, and position within the company, but it also helps those companies become more professional. They win more bids, and then they work to the betterment of their community. So that's really what AmeriShot is. It's the employer's commitment to building a responsible and ethical system for their employees to grow within. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Is is there something is there kind of a a group called merit shops? I mean, is there is there something like v corporations that a merit shop is a bad I mean, is there No. No? It's just a a term. [Member David Weeks ]: It's just [Speaker 4 ]: a it's a higher, calling that we follow, which, really, it called our our members to to to be those responsible employers, to to take care of their people. Because, again, you know, when we look at the workforce, and that's really a lot of what I'm gonna talk about today, it's about attracting those people. It's about keeping those people. And in order to you know, we have a small market here where we only have about two thousand individuals coming into the construction market every single year. Reputations are fast moving through the marketplace, and so it's important that not only do we practice these systems of merit, but we also talk about it so that people see that we really are committed to providing that level of service to community and and and the people that [Member David Weeks ]: work with us. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Is it like a guild? Like, I feel like guilds are coming back into fashion as a way to talk about integrity and, you know, con continued mutual advancement and support. [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. I'm not sure that I would go there. I would call it more of a mission statement. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: We have [Speaker 4 ]: than than anything else. We don't I don't believe that we have any organizational pieces around it other than just the philosophy. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Bring back the guild. [Speaker 4 ]: Well, we can talk about that. I'm just not sure how that goes. I don't know how that fits with my testimony today, but we could put that in somehow. So so ABC provide a lot of services to its membership, employee workforce development, of course, advocacy. You'll see me in the building. Although this year, I'll tell you a story about where a lot of my time has gone this year. But you'll see me in the building on environmental issues, on employer employee related issues, workforce development, economical issues. So I'll still be in here happy happy to continue to work. We also do business consulting and networking. We help them grow their businesses. You know, in fact, one of our most popular training programs that we have is the future leaders in construction program where we have people that are anything from working in the c suite all the way down to brand new field people where we come in. It's a year long course. They come in once a month. And we talk about different ways of soft skills, like how to communicate, how to work effectively, how to prioritize them, how to work with conflict and and move forward. So so that's a couple of the different things that that we do with them. We work out with a lot of different groups in the community, like the Vermont Career Technical Centers, Vermont Adult Learning, Vermont Works for Women, National Association of Women in Construction. We also participate with recovery organizations, state agencies, and and there's a lot of other organizations related to workforce that that we work with. And I also personally, sit on the CN Sustainable Energy Opportunity Network Board, which is another workforce organization out of Brattleboro. So so we work with a lot of the different players in the community. And one of the things that that ABC is able to offer is we're the state sponsor of the National Center for Construction Education and Research. That's NCCER. I'm only gonna say that once. I'll use the acronym. NCCER. NCCER. National National Center for Construction Education and Research. And that's a, yeah, that's a nationally recognized curriculum for construction. We happen to be the statewide sponsor. So we certify centers and teachers like the CTP centers, their teachers. We also certify, people in the prisons, which, by the way, I'll be doing a little tour of the prisons and talking about what it means to go work in construction very soon. Other training outfits, you know, Sianna is one of them. We help some of our employers become certified, and we operate our own apprentice program that's an employer sponsored program. So we now have our NCCR curriculum apprentice program. We've graduated three cohorts through our employer sponsored program. So it's been very successful so far. The feedback has been amazing. I attended the graduation back this fall and asked you know, just went around and spoke candidly with some of the individuals in the room. And their their their request was what's next. Was there an apprentice level two? What do I do now? One of the apprentices were so excited over their graduation. They rapidly went home, quit their job, and put up a sign that they are now a contractor on Facebook. They came back to their employer, but but they were really excited with what they were able to learn. We're also working on a first in the state free apprenticeship program, and that is going to be a six to an eight week kind of rapid learning program that's set up to to bring people in that have just come out of the CTE programs or are coming in at large that wanna get into the construction program. So when someone comes out of the CTE, they're generally learning more on the residential side of construction. So when what we're trying to do is set them up. So when they go to work for a commercial construction company, they actually can come in and spend some short time not only learning the hard skills that you need to learn to be in a a a construction commercial construction site, but the safety skills as well as we're also working on soft skills, things like financial management, communication skills, and and, I mean, think things that we've we've come to find to be we take take for granted things like showing up on time, things like that, how to save money to get gas in your vehicle to get to work. You'd be surprised how often that we actually hear that as feedback. So that was one of the requests from the employers as we had had a little bit of an element of financial financial awareness to that so that that they understand what they're doing. So in July of twenty [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: four It's just on pre apprenticeship. Yeah. It strikes me that pre apprenticeship might begin as a junior in high school too. I mean, as part of expanding our dual enrollment and dual opportunities for high schools, students getting them working in the summer, that strikes me as a pre apprenticeship opportunity too They're in a CTE program. [Speaker 4 ]: So we're actually exploring these as opportunities. So I've been communicating with the Saint Albans program, the side of our back, and they are looking for different alternatives to bring people to. One of the things that we do face as a challenge while they're in school is if they are not eighteen yet, it could be difficult to have them in dangerous jobs, promotion requirements. But that's something that we're working on with the schools to try to be able to accelerate that and bring people in to [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Let's let's work on that together. [Speaker 4 ]: Absolutely happy to do. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Whatever we have anyway, sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. [Speaker 4 ]: No. You didn't. No. No. Obviously, that's a little bit hotcy. So in July of twenty twenty four, I I made made my change, and I came over to the Associated Builders and Contractors. And within a couple of weeks of of joining this association, a handful of our members called us in for a meeting. And at that meeting, it was the the member said, we really appreciate what's going on with the apprenticeship program. We really have our idea. You know, our eyes are on workforce development right now, and what we believe we need is to supercharge your program. We believe we need to bring dignity back to the trades, promote it as a as a valuable pathway that people can go down. And we need not only a program, but we need a center to do so. So what began at that moment was planning for and designing of a a training center that would be located in Chittenden County. Through extremely generous, cash in kind and material donations from, not only our members, members of the public and others, we've been able to secure a ten thousand square foot facility in Winooski right off of Interstate eighty nine, and we've begun our interior fit up. Part of the project that we're putting together is we've developed a five zero one c for nonprofit board of directors to help us oversee the program, oversee the training that we're doing, oversee the output that we're doing, as well as be a conduit to be able to accept donations for us to stay open and continue to do the things that we're doing. We we put that together. By pairing the nonprofit model with the generosity of our industry, it's it's actually made this possible. This actually was more of a ten year plan. And if we were to budget this out and and put it together as an association with our dues structure and everything like that, we're talking a ten year plan, lots of walls. But by putting together this non profit structure, working with our members, I mean, you'd be you'd just be shocked to see the generosity and support that we've been getting, whether it's, paid labor that the company is donating. We have, almost all of the materials that, we're building these, building up these classrooms with are either, a contribution from our members. We also have, what they call the Tremor Grant program through through the associated building contractors. It's helping us put technology in the building to to create a first class training facility that we'll be able to use not only for our members, but other people in the community. We've been talking and working with the Home Builders Association. There's a group I'm working with that just want a grant to develop a weatherization workforce. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Okay. [Speaker 4 ]: So we see this as being, you know, a place in Chittenden County that is an underserved or a a private slash nonprofit training facility. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: So when do you expect it to be finished? And give us a range of some of the skills that you'll be training in and and professions you'll be training in. [Speaker 4 ]: Yes. So we're we're looking [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: When can we maybe this is another field trip opportunity Yes. Saying? [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: That we might have. [Speaker 4 ]: Well, I we we certainly are going to arrange the field trip. We are looking to have major construction finished during mid to late March. That's a moving target just by, I mean, everything that we're seeing now, acquisition of materials may become an issue if we have to get anything from Canada the next thirty days. But we're we're aiming for mid March. I'm gonna say end of March is probably a better, safer bet. That's when we go online in April with our apprenticeship. Fourth cohort begins. We've hired a full time instructor that will be in the building all day long who will not only be a full time instructor, but he'll also operate as a a sort of a business agent to go out and, recruit people to come in, whether they he's going to schools, whether he's going to other organizations, recovery centers, you name it. Mhmm. That's what what the that's what that individual will be doing. So we'll have that all up and running. We're gonna do a grand opening ceremony. Of course, we're gonna invite you. But if you'd like a private tour we'll we'll also be able to do that. We're getting near the hard hat phase, and I do have a few extra hard hats to have you come out and see see the progress that we're doing. I mean, the stated purpose of this facility and program is to provide clear advancement routes to new contractors, act as a magnet to attract, prospective career candidates. And we also wanna promote the value of a career in construction because that's just something that gets lost. I always tell the story about when I was a young real estate agent that, you know, I was I was twenty two when I got my license, and I didn't have any money at that point in time. I just got to school and, you know, I was for a twenty two year old and never understood how I was selling homes to people that were twenty two, twenty three, twenty four years old. The one thing a lot of these individuals had in common was they were driving contractor trucks. And they had started their journey, six years before I did it. You know, at eighteen, they came and they went to work maybe for a company like DC, maybe for a company like DEW. And and that's something that's lost. We don't talk about a lot. And that's what you'll see from us with this facility is really talking about the outcomes of the people that are coming into that industry and and how their lives are changed. You know, quite frankly, someone that comes into this industry and works for twenty five years and retire retires and they take general care of their savings, they're probably gonna have seven figures when they retire from doing this job, working in the trade. They also have the opportunity to break up, start their own business. And and I think that's huge. Great time to recognize to have a have a watch on it. But if I start getting long winded, tell me because I would like to leave No. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: You and John have have until February. So good. Right. [Speaker 4 ]: Right. So just, you know, coming back, just to the apprentice model a little bit because this is something, that was new to me coming to ABC, was that, you know, what we what we look at with this is we put together a commercial construction. This is to talk a little bit about what we'll do in the facility. Yeah. So we currently are operating a commercial carpentry construction apprentice program. So it's very specific to commercial carpentry, and that's a it's a year long process. It involves three components. There's on the job training, and we put together a kind of a hit list per se of what they have. Like, they need to learn stairs. They need to learn framing. They need to learn finishing, and they go through with their employer on those different pieces. There's also an in class portion where they go through the NCCER training curriculum, and they actually test out on that. So there's a lot of affirmative teaching, coaching. And it's you know, the tests are they're not terribly difficult, but they're they're hard enough that we're actually making sure that there's an aptitude for what they're learning, and there's assistance where there's any challenges to to that learning piece. And then the other part of it is we have not on the job training, but we also do a half day once a week of training with our instructor where they may be with our instructor one day, and he's teaching them how to use a power tool. Or I got to go and, one of our, scaffolding vendors was there, and they spent a half day showing them how to properly install scaffolding, which actually that was the working in construction for seven years, that was the first time I'd ever seen scaffolding done the right way. So it's it's very interesting to to see that, you know, what what they are actually learning in there. So part of this program that we put together and part of our, our our vision and our guide going forward is we're going to adopt other, components of construction. So one of those will be masonry. We're looking at developing a welding program. We're looking at a a finishing and cabinetry program. We're looking at a painting program. These are all desperately needed Yeah. Trades that just aren't out there. Is there [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: machining in the cards or no? That's [Speaker 4 ]: that may be more on the manufacturing world than us. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: The MAC does a lot a lot of that in our CGEs, obviously. [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. Yeah. I mean but, like, HVAC people are machining [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Mhmm. And they [Speaker 4 ]: conduct work and stuff like that. But, like, it's one of our members, Vermont Heating and Ventilation. As a matter of fact, they have their own in house apprentice program for HVAC where they actually do that machine training. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Yeah. [Speaker 4 ]: What we're we'll be able to actually do, and a lot of these trades will really enjoy this, is because we're all using the NCCER platform, we can actually bring them in to our training facility Mhmm. And do the what they call the core, which is your safety, which is learning basic tool information and that stuff because the trades really would prefer not to do those. They would rather teach them how to form metal. [Member David Weeks ]: Mhmm. Like, [Speaker 4 ]: that's what they wanna do. So they actually will get the benefit of being able to work with us because the way NCCER works and agency that allows us to operate [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Mhmm. [Speaker 4 ]: Is if they already have experience in that module, the welding company doesn't need to make their the the plumbing apprentice program doesn't need them to go back through the OSHA ten again or Right. To to take that four feet from them. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Masonry, welding, and what are the others? I'm sorry. I I lost count of all the [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Oh, well. [Speaker 4 ]: Opportunities. Well, we're gonna work make so currently, and these are the next this this piece will be released over the next several years. That's how long it takes to set up the programs. A masonry, painting Painting. Cabinetry. We're also looking at welding as an option and then expanding on those core trainings. In addition to those pieces, that's gonna be our apprentice model. Right? So we have the apprentice model, and then we'll have our pre apprentice program that we'll put together. And that's that's gonna be in the month of June and July when the schools let out, and we need to get those people rapidly trained and out there in the workforce. We also are offering things like human resource training and how to business develop. And so we're looking at and as a matter of fact, our education manager will be doing a tour with me next week. We're going around to see what what do people need. Is it professional leadership development? Is it HR? Is it conflict? What is that piece that they're needing? And it's it's a lot of stuff. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: So that's okay. That's my that's, like, my passion, and I I just feel like if you have these, I don't know, flexible spaces. Like, I can just picture so much good stuff happening in here and my my sort of three, like, pet issues from watching my husband in this industry around these around the folks like this all day is child care, collocating with child care. I mean, often, you know, his guys are the ones calling out because their wife works at the hospital, and she can't bring the kids, you know, but but he's the one who's gonna be calling out and and taking care of the kids, you know, because it's just he he can walk off the site a little more easily, honestly, than than his partner. So, you know, child care, a health clinic, you know, just people getting cancer screenings, taking care of themselves, you know, whatever. Yeah. And three, you know, I think if you build something with new Americans in mind, then you get it basic literacy. You know, that that, like, these are some of the smartest folks. They can build stairs. They could do amazing things, but they can't often write a contract. Right. You know, they can't like like, my own, you know, my own, contractor was, like, will you start writing my contracts because I edit them for him when he sends them to me? But, you know, it's just it they feel, like, really basic but valuable visual ways of talking about well-being in the trades in a way that, you know, would be, I think, really like, just start so many new conversations that would be helpful. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: And just to tack on Keisha's great idea. We there's money, and [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: it's Yeah. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: I will also help you [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: out there. [Speaker 4 ]: I mean, [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: there is we now have, you know, an opportunity, a real opportunity that we have been able to you know, all all promoters are helping finance. So we have put we are really putting our money into that value of getting people to work when they otherwise might not have been able to and also so many. Anyway No. Be a great opportunity to collocate a childcare center somewhere close. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: I will find you, but I mean, I know you all know [Speaker 4 ]: who I might be. Skilled, though. Yeah. Me too. I might need some new skills for that, but I'm I'm willing to explore that. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: You can learn that. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: But there are lots of people you can partner with [Speaker 4 ]: us. Yeah. So to your third point, the new Americans, that was one of the things that most excited us about, the physical location that we chose. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Yeah. I mean, [Speaker 4 ]: we are right in the middle of Route fifteen, Route seven intersection, Winooski schools. We have Essex School, which lost their tech program for construction years ago. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: BPD sector. BPD sector. [Speaker 4 ]: DSAC who we're also partnering with Yeah. Which is another part of what we'll be offering there in addition to employer sponsored training. But part of this is to develop a workforce. Right? So working with Vermona, adult learning, working with some of these different programs, we're able to bring in the public at large, and we can duplicate our construction pre apprentice program and create a construction one zero one with a hand off to employers at the end. The neat thing is, I've already been working with VSAC, and they will allow us to work with their forgivable loan program. So Right. If someone wants to come in off the street, they can fund the training program that the individual goes through. And if they when we match them up with an employer at the end of the program, if they stay with that employer for a year, it's a forgivable loan. We all walk away. They the tuition gets paid. The person's out on the street that they've already got a skill, so they're able to walk in and ask for the higher wage rate, which is that's part of this whole building people thing is so that they don't stop start at the bottom. And that's one of the things, you know, I found, you know, when you go out there, if it's a PC or a Rearc or a DAW, these are giant companies. And for some people that may not have any experience in the industry, it can be daunting for them to go apply there. And one of the things that we found working with the CTEs and talking to them about one of the biggest challenges is and this goes to my last point where they'll train someone, they'll get them up to speed, and then they send them out to their employer world. If they don't end up with a quality employer that's, you know, either a merit shop employer like mine or has another, you know, valuable training program, savvy HR, and they're taking good care, if that person isn't treated well, they leave the industry, and they don't come back. Yeah. It's not about the employer. It becomes about the industry. So that's why it's important [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: be about the employer. The employer needs to have the values you're talking about it and build and grow that young person's interest and skill. [Speaker 4 ]: That's part of my job is to promote what we do. It's the marketplace that's out there. And so that we're we're we're gonna, you know, continue to run with that flag to get more companies believe in that philosophy. And I will say that a lot of a lot of the major employers in in Vermont, whether they're my members or my former association members, do practice those skills and ethical treatment of their employees. So I wouldn't wanna be I wouldn't wanna mislead that in but we have a problem with that per se. But that is one of the challenges. If someone you know? And we we we saw this with a a registration of contractors in the residential world. We also dealt with this with misclassification issues over the year. Oh. If someone goes to work and they think they're being treated as an employee and they fall off the roof, break their leg Mhmm. And they're all of a sudden find out they're not an employee, they're an independent contractor. Oh, by the way, your hospital bills on you. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Right. [Speaker 4 ]: That's a problem now. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Well and look look what good came out of Vermont Construction Company being held to account Mhmm. For their workforce. You know, now there's this this new oversight entity to [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Yep. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: You know, regardless of how you're classified, etcetera, just to be treated humanely and to figure this industry out, you know, from that perspective. I think that's great work that you're [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. Yeah. No. I think they I I don't know a lot about that. They're Yeah. As if they're not a member, but I did read the press. And sometimes it takes, you know, takes somebody else tapping me on the shoulder and telling me how to do it [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: the way. Mhmm. [Speaker 4 ]: So one of the things that we realized when the physical work began on this training facility is that even with our major investments from the association and generous contributions by members and a a successful business plan that we have, this is extremely expensive. And one of the things that we've identified to another one that we've identified is in addition to us putting this together, that's very expensive. But also for employers that are out there, sometimes sending people out to training can be very expensive. We all know that the average you know, seventy well, seventy eight percent of Vermont employers have ten or less people within their companies. These are small businesses. So sometimes when an employer has to look at especially now if an employer is concerned about having tariffs come up or or something else, they're challenged even if it's only a thousand dollars, two thousand, three thousand to send somebody out for a course. So getting people off to those training courses sometimes can be more difficult. Maybe not as much for the giant employers, but, again, for the same giant [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: big time. [Speaker 4 ]: But for some of the smaller ones that wanna upgrade upgrade their workforce, keep them, be competitive, grow their businesses, sometimes a little bit of government help might Mhmm. Be attractive to them. So we have two small requests, and I'll then I'll I'll turn it I'll open the questions and then turn it over to my friend John here. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: You hit us with the request, and then you just pivot, John. [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. No. Well, I'll answer your question. But it's your request. And and and I'm making these requests realizing what kind of fiscal year we're looking at, that we're dealing with the education funding crisis. So I'm I'm trying to figure out something that'll work. And one of those things that we we thought of that might make sense to help employers of all sizes send their people off is to create a corporate a Vermont corporate tax credit to assist employers who are sending their staff off to state recognized credential programs. So the NCCER program is one of those. But there are other programs in nursing and manufacturing and other programs that employers might find that beneficial. You know, again, when you talk to an employer or an investor, tax credits are very attractive, and it's something that we believe will help that out. So I'll I'll spy a little bit of language in here. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Yeah. She get that trust. We have two members of finance on this committee. Great. One's sick at the moment, but Randy's hearing. [Speaker 4 ]: Good. Good. Yeah. So that's I think we'll have them see if we have capacity for it, and I don't know what type of limitations might might exist. But I'll work on getting some language out that maybe can become part of a workforce. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Do you have a notion of what it would cost and what we might how we might finance it. I mean, because that's money, obviously, we're losing. So what how what would we cut to I mean, do you have enough do you come with us with a balance so that we [Speaker 4 ]: So so that's why we have you. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Bro. I'm saying. I mean, bro. It is Yeah. You know, we have a we have people missing from the workforce. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: We have Growing their skills. Better. [Speaker 4 ]: So the reason why kind of we thought that a tax credit may be appropriate is that you're actually talking about dollars actually spent Yeah. Invested upfront by the employer. You're not required to come back every single year and make a specific appropriation then x y. And it doesn't benefit just one organization. It can benefit others. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Yeah. No. No. I I think this actually is a great idea. And, actually, I would build on it by by maybe having the employer guarantee that the income to get back to what we get back, that the that sort of like the veggie program that their income would also when they return, their wage would increase. [Speaker 4 ]: You know what? I have a good answer for you. When they go through that program, they're required to have that advancement too through through our apprentice program. So that that absolutely we can do that. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Yeah. I think that would be gain. Let me balance the Yep. But but many of our other programs also, so you know, do do that with future benefits in mind. And some Right. Just a hard time wrapping their heads around. It's future It's true. Future benefits. Bob, keep going. What's the second piece? That's a good first piece. I know we have to break. [Speaker 4 ]: So that's a good one. And that that that, I think, you know, we have to go work with finance and ways of being on that to find some capacity. But it Yeah. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: But, you know, economic development, though, you might include it. So let we at least need to work. Yeah. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Yeah. No. I'll give you [Speaker 4 ]: some suggestive language. And then the other one, [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: for St. Jeff, you think about also there is that notions so often we do some sort of an investment in order to get people to do something, and they do it. They take the advancement, and then they leave the state. It's just something in the back of our minds that should be thinking about about how we grow up with something like this. [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Higher wage and commitment to stay. Correct. [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. No. And that's something that's we're we're trying to contemplate how we can do that too because when they go through the apprentice program, all of a sudden, they become gold to the other employers. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Right. Mhmm. So All over the region. [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Yeah. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: So Okay. Second half. [Speaker 4 ]: So the second one, and this this may be a little [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: John to have some time. [Speaker 4 ]: This may be a little more heavy of a lift. But one of the things that's been very challenging is equipment acquisition. And I know that's not just with us, but it's, you know, some of these manufacturing equipment, some of these robotics that people are using in different programs. So I would suggest that there's there's [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Was it an acquisition for the training center? [Member David Weeks ]: Yes. Okay. [Speaker 4 ]: So the there are grants that exist, and we're we're participating in a federal grant through the ACCD. That's a much larger, more difficult, very twenty page allocation process. What I'm suggesting is a smaller Vermont version of that that maxes out on a hundred thousand dollars that could be offered to training facilities. Again, not just ADC, but training facilities that are following a a state agency of education recognized training program, and that could be manufacturing. That could be pharmaceuticals. That could be any other training program that's out there. But the equipment is rapidly becoming is rapidly becoming more expensive Mhmm. And the technological aspects of it is advancing on a fairly regular basis. So that makes it a little difficult to keep up. But we like, in the construction world, they don't you they use everything as batteries now. Like, they don't have air operated equipment or they don't plug in anymore. It's all battery operated. So the next steps that as we go forward are working more GPS related equipment and tools, equipment simulators, things like that to help people learn. And I'm sure that's with every other other person. Person. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Can I okay? So why can I never remember the name of the very full company that's gotten VeggieDollars that's doing charging like, they're working with [Member David Weeks ]: Dyna Power? [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Not Dyna Power. Oh, it's they [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Yeah. I know what your copy of [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: They do, like, medical device charging all the way to charging huge supply trucks, but it's there's no physical connection. So it's like a, you know so it's very cool. It's very cool. But anyway, I would think I mean, my mind goes to the new tech hub that got twenty three million dollars Yeah. From the fest. I don't you know, they should hopefully be a partner in this too that's been part of this. I might conduct their work at Global Boundaries. Right. But if, you know, if you need help talking to the tech hub and making sure that that connection is strong, that's a lot of federal money we just got, which I would hope goes into a partnership like this as well. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Yeah. But the you're right. The equipment is evolving so fast and is now so expensive. Yeah. But that find somehow finding grants and partnerships for that, it would be [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Yeah. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Now we we we can start thinking about that. That may not be it, [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: but beyond logic helping stuff. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: One of [Speaker 4 ]: my one of my members You [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: have ten minutes. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Let [Speaker 4 ]: me just go like this and get out of here. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: No. Let me try to pivot. And [Speaker 4 ]: See, I I asked for something and now I'm moving on. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: So do [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: you have somebody you'd like to introduce? [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. I'd like to introduce John Petzagalli. John's with Petzagalli Properties. So he's the chair of our our board of directors that still has a working name that [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Resonant Link. [Speaker 4 ]: Resonant Link? [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Resonant Link. Not an easy name to remember, but Resonant Link is doing very cool things here. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: This is why you have we all learn things every day. [Speaker 4 ]: Thank you. [Member David Weeks ]: Thank you. Morning, everybody. Good morning. John Pizziani. I'm not with Pizziani Properties. [Speaker 4 ]: Oh, my apologies. Things up. [Member David Weeks ]: I I work with my sisters in our own adventures. I used to work with Pizziani Construction, and I'm gonna just rehash this to raise a couple of key points. I think we've covered a lot of starting with Frank. He was pretty good at outlining, you know, where we've sort of come from for this problem, and Matt did a good job of laying out what we're trying to do about it. I'm gonna give you just a couple minutes on how I think we got here at the state and the country, and it really boils down to a couple of things. For a long time, at the as the state sort of is losing its family farms, and you can go back to four years or so, there was construction as an industry benefited from a steady drumbeat of people coming off the family farm from outside Chimney County looking for work. And those folks, they knew what a day's work was, used to working outside. They could solve any problem that you put in front of them. And they they could fix things, they could operate equipment, and they were an automatic buyer on the spot, ready to work, the gas. And those people have stopped showing up. They stopped them at the long time ago. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Or they retired. [Member David Weeks ]: Or they retired. But this problem has been since I started construction, I started working at the Italian before. During my summers, what I was touched on earlier, and I went out and I learned to very valuable early work experience, some skills. Those people are no longer coming in the door to look for work. And on top of that, we've had since I was in high school, growing up, went to South Plains High School, the vocational ed offerings were down the hall, around two corners, out by the dumpsters, in the loading dock, in the smoking area, and it was nothing people wanna be part of. It was the failure track. Right? So there has been several generations of kids who have who have been being told that if you're not going to college, well, we'll take care of you over here, but sorry you're not going to college. But it's it's a real scarlet letter for kid people of a certain generation. It was. Yeah. It was. And so Hangover is here in force, and the people that are thinking about a career in trades, there is a real resurgence in its sort of cache, I'll say. But we gotta work a lot harder at making it a desirable, honorable track place to go work and spend your career. Matt's example about young people driving new trucks and putting money in their pocket and saving for retirement is is very real, but we're struggling against a perception that is not feels like it may be getting better, but it is nowhere near [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: telling you the guilt. They they play, like, video games of the the the Dungeons and Dragons. Like, this they know this language. John, I think I think you're absolutely right. And I think one [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: of the reasons it's a lot, it's a lag because I think the kids are discovering and and there's a a you know, I think that stigma is changing, definitely. But I think part of the lag is us, the parents, who who have that perception still and not necessarily kids who are really jazzed by some of the opportunities if they're well introduced to them. [Member David Weeks ]: It it's worse than that, I think, because what we're trying to do here, we're talking about we'll talk about weatherization, green building, basic carpentry. That's scratching at the surface of what we need to get done. Widening Technologies and their new expansion, Widening critical employer. Right? Yep. So you can hear Lindenville. People who just learn how to spray foam aren't gonna build that. The the difference between the skills that we're talking about and what PC and these other local contractors that we're trying to support do is it's like, you know, Rec Sports versus major leagues. Hey. There's a big league there. So the level of skills that we're trying to develop, we're starting at a very, very basic level, and we have a long way to go. And I'm I'm gonna just jump through all the stuff that I've written down here because most of it's gonna be covered. But what we're talking about is a very Vermont approach to solving this problem. We have this great industry support in ABC. They are the adult in the room, so to speak. In the room are people like myself. I'm not affiliated with any particular company, but my board, at finding the chairing to to run this training center, has members from the three different significant general contractors in the state, the most significant ones. So it's a team of rivals. You guys have read the book? Could you yeah. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Would you that was [Member David Weeks ]: the one. We have Cummings represented. Okay. We have Rearc. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: We [Member David Weeks ]: have PC. And the GEWs and Engelbert's are doing the things that Matt talked about. They're providing in kind support, donating materials. Oh, great. We are neighbors. We are not competitors. We are trying to fix this because we all recognize you all benefit. Well, we all benefit, but, I mean, everybody in this room relies directly or indirectly on construction. Correcting it. Another of my little rubs is that all the programs that come out of Montpelier that are focused on workforce ready, and then their job development training. To me, I mean, I talk a lot about them. I sit on Frank's board, and we've talked to the roundtable all night. They've always been focused at what I think are about the CNC operator level and up, focusing on high-tech jobs. And everybody wants high-tech jobs. But if you bring high-tech companies to Vermont, shrum around, and they can't get the support they need from buildings and pool installs and expansions and reflips, they're gonna find that out of place or they're gonna hire our state contractors. So I I wanted to make a few of those points. They're very important. And we're we're taking a major first step and we're everybody's super excited about it. We're at this great point. We've all been trying to do it on our own, all these companies Mhmm. With limited success, but this new sort of arm and arm approach is gonna go. We have to make this work. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: So how many students at at at its height are you think you'll be able to to not processes the proper. How many will will you be able to use? Or how many students can take advantage of this at any one time? Because I think with if you're partnering with adult ed, you're also gonna be doing nighttime things. It's gonna be more of a a sixteen hour a day facility than a eight hour a day facility. [Member David Weeks ]: Yeah. We'll get there. We've we've set a goal to put a hundred kids through in the first twelve months. Great. And we think we think that's modest and achievable. People. People. Students. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Yeah. Right. So adults and I mean, what Yes. [Member David Weeks ]: People. Yeah. Okay. People. But as we get our feet under us and see what the other needs from industry are, we're gonna have the and sort of thing off as needed. I think we've never talked about it [Speaker 4 ]: up or done it. Right? [Member David Weeks ]: We signed a three year lease excuse me. We signed a five year lease, but I made sure we had a three year opt out because our hope is that if we're successful enough, we're gonna go where the geography is more appropriate. We think Winooski was a great start. It might be Georgia. It might be closer to Rutland. It might Windsor County would love to use Springfield. Second location. All those things are in the in the offing, but we gotta walk the pool. Right. Right. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: So that you see this at its best as a model that we could roll out regionally. Yeah. But yeah. Good. I like that thinking. I mean, we're we're all We have the space for you in Springfield. [Member David Weeks ]: Everybody involved, you know, leads construction, and we, you know, love it. And I I've told a lot of young people, I don't know of any industry that can show up. If you show up every day and are willing to solve whatever the problems are [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Yeah. [Member David Weeks ]: With the people around you, at the point we are in our industry, you are a rock star. Yes. You are the chosen one for advancement. The sky's the limit. That's I mean, we just gotta tell people this is a dignified, important, critical goal. Agreed. And I think failure track. This is we need these people. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: And, you know, I think one of the nice pivots is I think most legislators, as we talk around the state, certainly in our campaigns, all have been comforting the success and opportunities of of of a career in the trades and a a career of many of the exciting things that our CTE vCenters are are offering, and it's a huge range as you know. [Member David Weeks ]: It it is huge range. A word on CTEs. Any one of the people hiring people from CTEs will tell you they're not ready to go to work here. They have an interest maybe, and they have some very basic skills, but they're not But we need this bridge. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: We need these pre apprenticeships. [Member David Weeks ]: Yes. To call them graduate. They haven't the graduate to me is somebody that's finished this and is ready for you speak about not graduates. They're finished whatever CTE has offered, but they have [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: But they're not ready to work. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Dave? Is that a curriculum problem? Is that a length of length of That's a question. [Member David Weeks ]: Education problem. Excellent. I think if you took a hard look at the CTEs, there are all the issues that were raised, you know, fighting open minded. They're they're well intended. I think they offer a lot of exploratory function for you you mentioned that by the author because it's, you know, digital photography and graphic design. There's a whole host of [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: If you're buying I mean, they're doing, like, wing plane wings construction. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: They're they're they're a whole year old. Yeah. If you're a mountain bike mechanic [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: Yeah. [Member David Weeks ]: Because Kingdom Trails is nearby. Well, are they jumping out of any mountain bike mechanics? Of course not. In other words, people are picking at what the offerings are, which is fine. But I think [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: That should have been in middle school and then by high school. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Well, that's my point. I mean, I really think we need to be starting this a lot earlier in terms of building a lot of those soft skills and then getting them engaged in the work and training much earlier so that by the time they're senior, they they then can also be doing the work that gets them ready to work as, you know, trained and then also ready to work, the soft skills that get them ready to work. [Member David Weeks ]: To work. Maybe, but I I think a lot of folks in this building feel like CTE has checked the box for trades workforce ready then. It's not true. I'm I'm here to tell you it's that's not the answer Yeah. Completely. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Can I ask, like, so and you talked about OSHA and OSHA? What what age would you like to see people? If if there weren't regulations in the way, what age would you like to see people? [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: I [Member David Weeks ]: should pause that. That you got that because as as I try to get my kids, you know, my work experience as a thirteen year old [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Right. Is [Member David Weeks ]: yeah. Yeah. Absolute gift. Yeah. No. And I think And as [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: I tried to get my [Member David Weeks ]: kids out there without a family business or a farm Mhmm. You literally cannot use scissors. Okay? You you cannot use any So that's [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: not us. That's that must be federal. That's Certainly not us. Come on. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: No. But but let's I mean, let's explore that. We have a family business center at UVM. This has come up because, yeah, I worked in my dad's restaurant in ways that people cringe at. You know? But it it changed my life. So unless you have a family business, you're truly not allowed to do anything. [Member David Weeks ]: Or farm. Yeah. Planting or farm. Yeah. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Anything. Entrepreneur. For your family. So but those I mean, you your sister's at school. I mean, it's ridiculous. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: I don't know if you if you [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: so if [Speaker 4 ]: there's restrictions when you're with an educational institution, you can actually go out and do some of that stuff because they're covered at the educational institutions. Probably We [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: get you covered under the same thing. [Speaker 4 ]: There's mechanisms to do so, but it's it's complicated. I could I could [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: So better That might be the easiest thing, particularly if a lot of these are fed. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: I don't know if all of them are fed or I mean, let's yes. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: So we should explore. If you might be kind enough to follow-up with us because we're we need to take a bit of a break. If you'd be willing to follow-up with us, that would be great. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: And you should come to education committee [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: in the in the afternoon. This is, you know [Member David Weeks ]: Is that what we're doing? [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: Now I don't know what to say. [Witness Frank Cioffi ]: For it. [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: You know? I know. [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: Because I think our CTE because it's a so much cross jurisdictional piece, the CTE piece. So [Member Kesha Ram Hinsdale ]: The good news is between here, you have economic development, finance, education, and this is a shared bill. So you don't have to you should go do whatever you need to do Friday afternoon, but we've been talking to Jason Webster about carpentry licensure. I mean, like, we need to hear from you all what the package looks like and just write it. So [Member David Weeks ]: I'm not gonna know anything, Rick. I I appreciate everybody. No. It's what's I and I'm I'm happy to tell the story and a real lived experience Yeah. What industry is seeing and what we need. And this is it. We're we have this great momentum. I wanna underscore you. It is a very small step we have as long as Yes. In perception of what the trades are, it can be as a meaningful, dignified, important way to make a living. That's great on that list to see if it fits. Well, [Chair Alison Clarkson ]: it's high on our list too. So I think we have common goals. Thank you. Thank you.

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