SmartTranscript of Senate Agriculture - 2025-02-07 - 10:15 AM

[Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Good morning again. Senator, agriculture back in action. We're gonna spend, about an hour with the Champlain Valley Farmer Coalition. Senator Heppner and I had the, the state honor of being out there, banquet, a couple of Fridays ago. Good, group of folks. Certainly, very aware of what's going on in the ag business, which is nice, active in the ag business. And we're gonna start the conversation off with Vijay Nasrat, the executive director. Good morning. How are you? [Vijay Nazareth ]: Doing well. Thank you, man. Thanks for the opportunity to appear before you can go. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: The floor to your account is what you'd like us to know. [Vijay Nazareth ]: Thanks for coming to our meeting a couple of weeks ago. Yes. So I wanna take a quick second. So I'm Vijay Naswick. I'm the executive director. I've been with the Coalition for about three years now. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: If you wanna introduce everybody as you do it or as they go. I mean, by all means, whatever you'd like to do. [Vijay Nazareth ]: We'll stop. Ramsey, you wanna introduce yourself? [Ramsey Malish ]: I'm Ramsey Malish. I'm the president of the coalition. I have a farm in Cornwall. [Vijay Nazareth ]: So Ramsey Brian Kemp is probably a name you're familiar with, particularly you. Brian stepped down, presence role, and Ramsey is now You present. Has a two day scar. [John Lucas ]: Sure. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. [Holly Mangoch ]: Holly Mangoch. I have a bulk goat milk dairy in Orwell called Tufts Crossing Farm shipped milk to Vermont Creamery. [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: Hello, Lorenzo Whitcomb. I found with my brother and nephew in Williston. We're transitioning out of dairy into growing grain, namely corn, soybean, or other Vermont dairies. [Tim Cahart ]: Tim Kayher Kayhert Brothers in Addison, firm in a partnership with my brother. Twenty some odd years with my parents in a partnership. We milk fourteen hundred cows covering thirty three hundred acres of ground in Addison. [John Lucas ]: John Lucas, Orwell, Vermont. I milked three hundred cows by the lake. I'm currently treasurer of the coalition, and we I ship all [Tim Cahart ]: my milk to Cabot and Millbury. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: It's a total different look from when we saw you. Yeah. I'm [Tim Cahart ]: here. I commented in the car. I was sitting. Somebody shaved their head. I mean, [John Lucas ]: I gotta get my driver's license updated. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: We just had we spent an hour with Brad Lass at at Lass Agricultural Service. Well, she probably knows who he is. Yeah. So yeah. He was just on before you booked. So Sure. Thank you. [Vijay Nazareth ]: Yeah. So for those of you not familiar with us, we've got about two hundred members, hundred and thirty farms, well, diversified. We are kinda heavy into dairy as you would expect being in Madison County. We focus on three main programs. So water quality has been something we've been working on for ten years now. We recently introduced a workforce development program with the high schools in Addison County where we bring the kids out on the farm to address some of the labor shortage issues that we face in agriculture. And we have a new program from the Dairy Innovation Center to help our young farmers. So we have a cohort that we built, and we help them with grant writing, technical assistance, and other things because we recognize the importance that, you know, farmers are gonna play going forward and get all that help they can get. So those are our three programs. Today, we wanna focus on a few different issues, and I'm gonna touch upon them briefly. Once we'll give them an opportunity to talk about their farms and what they do and address their issues and concerns, then we can open it up for questions as well. So the first issue that we wanna address with you is the EPA direct. You're all quite familiar with cable permits, and the EPA directed for all regulation to be on A and R. We have had a good and productive relationship with the ABC BAG and with A and R for several years now. When you look at the REPs, which you've tell me if from the equivalent of agricultural practices, it's been a police now for almost ten years. They've actually worked. So we've seen big improvements in water quality with the trampoline basin. So the process has been working fairly factually. Now we're also aware of the EPA directive that break regulation beyond the ANR, and opposition on it is regardless of what the outcome is, when it sets up, we're happy to work with both agencies because our focus is on the goal. Right? How do we make sure of addressing product quality and how do we do it in a collaborative way? So for us, where it ends up is less important than all of us working together to achieve those goals. We also wanna talk to you about the Munich's bill that passed last year. And if you're familiar or you remember our testimony from last year, we took a sort of a pragmatic balance position, and we supported the New York law, essentially, which is pretty much what the law passed as well. That being said, I wanna express concerns about the availability of seed because we don't have a lot of good information on seed coming in, alternative seed. There are many, many varieties of neonic seeds that farmers used, and we don't know what quantity, what varieties would be available, but that exempts. There's a lot of concerns, a lot of uncertainty out there of apprehension, I'd say, by the farmers. We're also concerned about the exemption process. And there's a lot of research being done by Steve and Heather Dummy and others to identify the risk factors that go in to to the exemption process, but that's something we are gonna pay very close attention to because we wanna make sure that if risk factors are high, farmers get an exemption if they need one. As I'm sure all of you are following what's happening at the federal level with respect to funding for environmental programs, and that's a mainstay of what we do. We support conservation practices from the AT and T bag, ARR, RCS, etcetera. And a lot of that money is dried up or has been paused, and that puts projects on pause as well. So a lot of the good work that's helping address water quality, climate issues are now frozen. So I think a big concern of the product of our farmers. Labor, there's been a lot of talk about equilocations, and there's a lot of stress both on the front of farmers and on the part of the farm workers, what's happening there. And it's it's at a point now where, you know, metal stress levels are so high that there's gonna be health effects down the road, and we we remain extremely concerned about that. So it's something that we need to all be supportive. You know, a a a lot of our farmers treat their workers as established. Right. Right? It's not just about coming to farm working. They're appreciated. They're treated well. And, again, those don't have collaboration. So these are not the strength workers coming from similar. Productivity is also impacted, right, when this I stress off. So so that has an impact on file output. So that's something we need to keep keep in mind as you are. If you're following dairy, what's been happening in the state, you're seeing a lot of consolidation. Right? So we all know milk prices don't move a whole lot, but we know what goes into producing the milk. The input costs, the labor costs, and so on keep rising. So the only way you address that is if you grow. And so consolidation has been a big big deal across the market. That's that's fine if you're big enough to grow. If you're a small farm, what do you do? Right? What you need is new markets and new opportunities, capital to come to the state. You need folks to bring processing into the state. They they do that pretty actively in New York. Let's get some of that into into Milan. But for that, you need a favorable environment, a favorable business environment, favorable labor labor environment. But without that, our small farms are not disappearing. So folks around this room will talk to you a little bit about that in a in a few minutes, but we're extremely concerned about that. Emergency age. So whether you call it climate change or you call it whatever you want, we know that extreme weather events in huge impact on our bodies every single year. We had a drought two years ago. We had flooding last year. We had four. So how do we cope? How do we adapt? How do we deal with it? So we we need to get aid out to farmers who need it, and we need to get it out to them quickly. So that's gonna be something that we need to pay attention to as well. So that's kind of on my list of things that we are focused on, that we are concerned about. And I'm just gonna go around now, and each one of the farmers will talk to you about what they do and the stuff that's important to them. So Yeah. As well. Ramsey, why don't you lead us off? Yeah. Sure. I I as you [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: are, I'm pretty for the record. Yep. I'm Ramsey Melish. [Ramsey Malish ]: I am acting as the president of the coalition. We own and operate a small farm in Cornwall. It's a diversified farm. We sell organic milk, organic beef, or not organic pork, but conventional pork and conventional poultry. We've been farming in Vermont for going on twelve years, I think. Kinda farmed all over the state, kinda went on a a journey to get into farming. I don't come from a farming family. So I'm one of well, you're sitting in a room full of a bunch of us, but we are not the norm. So, you know, my journey is similar to theirs, but, you know, borrowed money, got into it, and tried to build a business. And that's something that I will speak to today is you know, I I'm a strong believer in opening markets, as Vijay just mentioned. And some of you might recall what happened in the organic milk business a few years back. The the folks in in our government were kind enough to subsidize organic milk for a time, and that is a great Band Aid. So solution based thinking. Right? Like, what do we need in order to build strong markets? And this this goes equally with my conventional counterparts. In fact, I'll I'll talk about that. There's basically only two millifiers in this state, and I think maybe some of you know that. There's the DFA and there's Agamark, who is Cabot. In my eyes, it's that's a big risk. Right? You know, what we saw on the organic side of things was Horizon, a a large nationwide company, decided they didn't wanna buy milk in Vermont anymore for logistical reasons. There were some some governmental pressures based on how much of the market they controlled. But for for for those reasons, they decided not to purchase smell cure anymore. And so the industry consolidated even further. And that's kind of something that I've been thinking about and we've been discussing a bit amongst ourselves. You know, as as these markets consolidate, where does that leave Vermont farms? And the answer is it leaves them vulnerable. And so we look at New York and what's happening there, and there's a handful of buyers. You know? It's not just two. There's there's probably six or eight buyers that are impactful. You know? They they're buying large volumes of milk. And [John Lucas ]: Yeah. So is it possible [Vijay Nazareth ]: to bring that market into Vermont? Absolutely. A hundred percent. [Ramsey Malish ]: Yeah. They're they're choosing to set up production in New York for a host of reasons, I assume. And, you know, they they they could have done that here, and they didn't. And I don't know why, but I assume that there's some things that we could do as a state to incentivize growth in this in in this area. And I think it's it's critical for the success of Vermont farms. You know, at the end of the day, like like Tim Tim said, you know, that he knows fourteen hundred cows. That's that's a large farm in Vermont, but a small farm in this nation. You know? Out west, where there's thirty thousand cow operations, that's a, you know, quite a quite a quite a gap there. And so, like, I think about that, and I think about who's ultimately buying the milk. And when there's only two players, it makes me nervous. I think it's something that [John Lucas ]: yeah. Have you reached out, Vijay, or anybody reached out to these other companies? Say, hey. Are you interested in coming to Vermont to buy our products, or does DFA and AgriMark kinda have it cornered? And I know [Speaker 7 ]: there's quotas and all that set [John Lucas ]: up, so that kinda messes with it. But if you bring in third or fourth player, [Speaker 7 ]: again, has anybody reached out to them to say, hey. [John Lucas ]: Do you wanna come to Vermont? [Holly Mangoch ]: Well, that Ramsey's in a kinda delicate position to reach out as a current, you know, producer for Snowyfield being like, hey. Just shopping around. You know? That would have to be done with tremendous tact. [Vijay Nazareth ]: So we need to do more of that, and we tend to focus on where the funding is. Funding has been probably on the environmental side, not on the economic side. And so even though we may see a problem and issue there, we don't spend as much time as we should. That's just being honest about it. But we need to have more intelligence as to why a company sets up a New York and then set up a new one. What are the constraints? How do we address those constraints? Right? Especially since Vermont's such a large, you know We got a great brand. [John Lucas ]: Super And we produce way more milk than we can create. Yeah. Yeah. And and [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Well, I I think that the thing that can be the most daunting is that you guys have contract with these folks, and you gotta jump from what somebody else to somebody else. And then they they don't make it. Then you gotta go back in back to somebody else that maybe you're not gonna be so fast to wanna buy your notes some more. And so that puts you in a [Tim Cahart ]: a lot of equity tied up within these cooperatives that would make change awfully, awfully difficult. I know. So we're just as engaged with them as a cooperative as we as are with our family. So to just pick up and move to the only other cooperative is extremely risky Yeah. On the conventional side. [Holly Mangoch ]: So I think I think, like, the the base point is, like, I'm I'm producing milk for Vermont Creamery. Vermont Creamery, I feel, has treated me fairly. I don't wanna go look for another buyer. However, made in Vermont has a brand. And if we can somehow work to incentivize other companies to come in to want to make milk dairy products, whether it's goat or cow in the state, then maybe there will be another option and not just one goat milk buyer that's able to take the amount of milk that I produce. So it's about incentivizing companies to come in, and then we'll have options or then there'll be competition or whatever. It's not about us individual farmers, like, seeking out another buyer. It's about getting the buyers here, which will support the pro rata or the product on me, not just make us feel safer. [Vijay Nazareth ]: And I think this needs to be a partnership with the agency of Ag. It's still the priority. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Yeah. Disagree with us. [Vijay Nazareth ]: So all the pharma coalition groups at the agency of ags need to get together and talk about OPM markets and what that's gonna take. So I look forward to having those conversations Yep. In a week six months. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Right, Ramsey. [Ramsey Malish ]: Yeah. Maybe that's a good enough point for me to pass the the torch around that, you know, I think that kinda gets the point across market access. [Holly Mangoch ]: So my little nuance [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: I know you already done it, but just because you're starting to talk again on the old days, you should talk. [Holly Mangoch ]: So Holly Mangoch, owner and operator of Tufts Crossing Farms, two hundred and forty acre heart farm in Orwell, shipping bulk milk to Vermont Creamery. I've heard about four fifty dairy goats, which in Vermont is one of the largest. But again, worldwide national scale is the drop in the bucket. So the little nuance niche view that I can bring that slightly different from Ramsey's, but expressing the same point is that Vermont Creamery and UVM and, frankly, the agency of ag is always like, we need more goat farmers. We need more goat farms. And then they're like, why is that not happening? Why are more cow farms that are struggling in the current fluctuation of the market not switching to goat milk? We don't have fluctuations in pay price. You know what you're gonna get. You can calculate out in your year's finances. And part of it is what farmer wants to put all the investment necessary to switch infrastructure to a company that there's, you know, there's only one buyer. There's no artisanal cheesemaker in the state of Vermont that could take the amount of milk that I ship, so it's only Vermont Creamery. And I think most people maybe have to be larger than my farm to stay in business. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: And who's been putting the most pressure on you as far as to to make more milk hauls? Is it is the is it the state or is it the I'm not I'm I'm maybe to put pressure. Isn't the right word, but it's encouraging more goat farmers. Is it the greenery that's putting putting that that ask out or more of the state because it is [Holly Mangoch ]: Both, I think. But, you know, it's financial pressures too as far as how much milk. Like, if if you're gonna grow and expand, it's because you have to to stay in business. But I there's, like, an overwhelming, I think, public voice of we need more goat farms. But then it's like you need to take that conversation a little deeper and figure out, well, why are net more traditionally, folks that come at it from a cow background, which I did, in which the other larger farms did, have the most success because they understand the financial model. They understand dairy, and so they're successful at making the switch. The folks that come into it like, oh, goats are cute. They have a rougher time. And so one is education and building that support network, and one is access to market and making sure that you have a buyer and that Vermont Greenway is the only one, you know, is actually here to stay and also is you know, they know the cost of production, and they're keeping up with the cost of production and making it a fair switch. So it's a lot of things, but the pressure is just coming. It just seems like it's in the air. Like, we should all move to goats. And it's like, yeah. Great. But that's gonna take a lot more education infrastructure and behind the scenes making the industry stronger within the state. There's a lot of loopholes that are not being caught right now, such as market for call animals, market for kids. These are things that haven't really been thought through on the scale that Vermont Creamery and I think the state are are hoping that Vermont gets to. Great. But there's some more thought that like, behind the scenes that has to make sure we have all these, like, channels built. [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: So [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: I think you spoke a couple of Fridays ago that you were milking ten hours a day at one time to get your goats through, and then you were able to get a a parlor a a newer parlor and all that stuff. Where did where did you where did the money come from for you to be able to build that? [Holly Mangoch ]: N e d b I c. And that has been great. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Saying the words. [Holly Mangoch ]: Northeast Dairy Business Initiative Center. I've been a recipient of two different grants through them, and I was a co recipient of a third one, and that money has kept my farm in business. The first one was for a larger bulk tank so I could continue to grow capacity, which I needed to do to stay in business. The second one was I was a participant in a grant that was studying the efficacy of extended lactation. So changing the cycle from what you normally do with a cow and doing it the way it's done in Europe, which hadn't been done in America and see if that worked with Vermont's goat populations. And also that paid for bringing in some new genetics from Europe, which is it's an ongoing, you know, five years from now ask me again if that helped, you know, the efficacy of that, but so far seems great. And then the third grant that I just received was for a parlor expansion, which is wonderful. I can get over a hundred and twenty five goats through an hour, which has just changed my life and made it possible for the farm to continue on. [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: And the [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: the monies that were there, no grant. Paid it back or not? It was just a grant. It wasn't something that I've done some of the payback on. [Holly Mangoch ]: Each one had a twenty five percent match. For my parlor build, construction costs weren't included, which was meant I had to take out another construction loan, which I will still be paying off for the next ten years. But [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: So you milk you were milked in ten hours a day, and you're milked in how many how many hours a day now? [Holly Mangoch ]: I actually [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: So No. So that in half. [Holly Mangoch ]: Yep. Cool. Yeah. That's been wonderful. And that, of course, it's not just me and my time in the parlor, but it's, you know, able to afford a relief milk or animal production. They're not stuffed in the holding area. Just it's the entire system. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Five more hours a day that's gonna it lets you do something different. [Holly Mangoch ]: Exactly. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Yeah. We'll do it. [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: We have a Lorenzo Whitcomb grain farmer from Williston. And I was gonna speak with you a little bit about the CAFO and the the directive that ANR be set up to enforce the CAFO. And and the CAFO is a concentrated animal feeding operation. That's what it stands for. And there's a a lot of challenges on Vermont Farms. We spend a lot of time protecting our livestock and our workers and employees and the quality of the food we produce in in the environment that we rely on. And I think Vijay mentioned earlier, I think the majority of farms or at least the farms that are involved in our group are proactive about their environmental stewardship. And and moving forward, if ANR is to take over the inspections, one of the issues that I think it may be is gonna be educating the inspectors on what's going on on a farm. And one example I'll give is we had some inspectors on our farm once, and they were looking around. And the inspector asked me why we were stockpiling so much hazardous waste on our farm. And I looked over the way he was looking. He was looking at our bunk silos, which were covered in plastic with tires on them. And he saw those, and he just assumed they were full of toxic dirt, you know, like you would have out behind a gas station or something like that. So I kinda quietly and quietly explained to him that that's a year's worth of feed for the dairy cows. He seemed to think, well, they all eat hay bales. They don't all eat hay bales. And and I think I think we're realizing that if we we need a little bit more enforcement of the rules that we have. I think the rules we have are, all in all, pretty good. But I think with that enforcement, we can get some protection from lawsuits. And, and I think the most important thing is the general public get a real sense that they're that when they go buy a farm, that they they know the farmers are taking care of their environment because, you know, people wanna be able to go to the grocery store and buy food all the time, but they also wanna make sure it's done, grown in a environment in a safe way. And, you know, it was just about feeding people. We're really good at that and that but [Vijay Nazareth ]: it's a [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: little bit it's more than that. It's one step above that. And so I I think you know, looking forward, whatever agency is ends up being passed with this, [John Lucas ]: I think, you know, we're we [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: can work with any agency. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: And I think just for for everybody in the room, and I think it would be the preference of this committee, and we have a lot of work to do on that. We're gonna have a miscellaneous farm ag bill that's gonna come to us, and we are just starting to get. But the position will be that we would wanna keep our agency of agriculture, being the ones that would regulate what you guys do. We don't need people in Boston coming up and, again, not understanding what we do and our ways of life and how committed really impacted all of you are to water quality and all quality of land and air and everything. So I don't know if we could be successful with that, but I think that we you know, that will be our preference. And so that's that's where we're gonna be standing as far as on that. So I appreciate that you're willing to work with everybody. [Vijay Nazareth ]: Yeah. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: But I'd rather I think we'd all rather in the state of Vermont, would rather that you work with the state of Vermont. [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: Well, I think we're at least myself, find it's like a kid with her parents getting divorced. I mean, we like both agencies. Mhmm. We don't wanna take sides. Right. We don't wanna get, you know, Continental, but I think and if there was one group enforcing the rules and another group promoting agriculture, that might might might be a possibility. And it's I think the agency of ag's always it's always been challenging for them to be doing both. And I and I think maybe the general public doesn't really understand that. I mean, I know the department brought their environmental enforcement agency to Williston to kinda physically separate them. You know, I it's definitely the right direction, [Speaker 8 ]: but, yeah, there's definitely challenges. Yep. So. You mentioned about lawlessness. Can you expound a little bit more on that? Have there been a significant number of, I mean, for lack of a better word, nuisance lawsuits Yeah. Towards farmers in recent years. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Well, not on our farm, [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: but they're they're That's good. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It's there has has been some fires. And I was thinking more of, like, CLF Mhmm. Going after, you know, their law too is, I assume, with who I brought EPA and private debate who was gonna enforce these rules. And I have a feeling that if they don't get what they want, they will just turn around and sue individual farmers. That's, you know, what and if we had a set of documents saying these are the practices, these are the rules that we have to have to abide by, these are the inspections that happen every year or every other year or whatever, you know, documenting to have this evidence that we are doing farming in an environmentally safe way. [Speaker 8 ]: So what I'm getting from you is because there there are bills that are are are coming up that concern this. And so I [John Lucas ]: I I wanna kinda hear from [Speaker 8 ]: you, both sides' concerns. So what I'm hearing from you is the farmers just wanna know [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: what the playing field is. Right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, we work with required ag practices for twenty years. Yeah. And so I don't see a lot of difference on the farm. I think there'll be differences in her, like, boot on ground. It's gonna be paperwork [John Lucas ]: part Mhmm. And, you know, [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: documentating and maybe who's who's visiting the farm. [Ramsey Malish ]: I think it would be relevant and maybe my responsibility to say that one of our members was sued a couple of years ago, and that farm, they lost that lawsuit. And [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: they were Who they? The the the you remember? Yes. Okay. [Ramsey Malish ]: And it, I believe, was all around some RAPs that they followed and just didn't work out in their favor, and there wasn't a ton of protection for them. [John Lucas ]: So I just figured I should say that. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: No. That's that's why we're here. Oh, I just wanna why we're right here just for a second because you're doing some things that were interesting and we're starting to hear more about it. You got out of dairy Yeah. And now you're into crop producing [Vijay Nazareth ]: Mhmm. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: For the open market. [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: Yep. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Can you just maybe take a few minutes and tell us about that a little bit? [Speaker 7 ]: Well, I can say we were [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: a very successful dairy farm, and my brother and I are getting to the point where we're thinking about retiring and stuff. And my nephew, though he's very good at dairy cow, you know, milking and stuff, that he wanted to focus more on the crop deal work and crop crop. So, yeah, we said, fine. That that's a great idea. And we were using robots for the last twelve years to milk our cows. And but even with robots, you know, labor was an issue. But you were rocking how many? Two hundred and forty. Yeah. And so, yeah, our goal is to, you know, work four by four. I guess, four hard, busy weeks in the spring, another four in the fall, and at least for my brother and I. My nephew will be working year round. But and, yeah, we've had good luck selling our our grain stuff to other What are your grains are? What's that? [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Your grains are? What are you growing? [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: Corn and harvesting that is dry shell corn and soybeans. And we made connections with other dairy farms and that are buying the feeder now. So yeah. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Are you able to get them harvested, roasted, ground? [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: Well, we have challenges. We're right on the Winooski River, and so we flood a lot. And when we were harvesting the soybeans this year, it was so dusty. I couldn't see from you to me when I was driving the combine. And but we're [Vijay Nazareth ]: the the river [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: gives and it takes. You know? It it gives us a lot of very high nutrients in in the soil and stuff and and so we can grow great crops. It's well drained. There's no rocks. There's no clay, anything like that. But it does flood, and sometimes it floods six or seven feet of water on top of [Speaker 7 ]: the crops and stuff. Are you down by the airport? And [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: Yeah. Yeah. So that's where what we consider our home farm in Essex Junction. And then we're right in also in Williston. We are on one seventeen and down towards the North Williston Bridge. How many acres? We're cropping about four hundred, four hundred. So [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: And are you in a situation to where why would you and and move it along? You're not in a storage position where you have to store the product? Are you able to get get it gone as it goes, or how is that? [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: Well, we're we have put up a two or three or three grain bins for showing dry grain. Yeah. We this year, we got in a situation where we filled them all up, and we had to stop harvesting Yeah. Until we were able to sell two bin empty two bins, and we refilled it again. And the second one, we filled half full. So that's somewhat of a learning curve. You know? We didn't really know, you know, how much we could produce per acre. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Yeah. And we got [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: a little better idea now. And so but we're also selling some corn silage from other farms that have because of the weather, haven't been able to build up their stockpiles of of silage. And but that's a little tough for us because we're so far away from other farms, and silage is very heavy to transport. Yep. [Tim Cahart ]: Mister Cahart. Yes, sir. Tim Cahart in partnership with my brother, Steve and Addison. I guess a little bit of the family history of our of our operation is my grandfather and grandmother moved to the state of Vermont in the mid sixties where it was my grandfather's dream to firm with his four sons just outside of her jens. My father chose to leave that home farm in nineteen seventy nine, which is where we are down in Addison. My grandfather, Roger, was a legislator up here for many, many years doing his part to lobby, to legislate for the farmer to make things better on the farm, be it marketing, regulations, rules, you name it. So uncles are farmers, fathers are farmers, grandfathers are farmers. It's in our blood. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Is there a Lee Kier? [Tim Cahart ]: That's my dad. [Speaker 7 ]: Yeah. My [Tim Cahart ]: dad is maybe many people know. He's a little amputee. He lost both of his arms in a PTO accident on our firm in nineteen eighty five. Still very you know, they spend the winters in Arizona, but he still loves the firm like he did when he was in first grade. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Amazing man. Mhmm. [Vijay Nazareth ]: Yeah. [Speaker 7 ]: Yep. Yeah. [Tim Cahart ]: Both like, we were speaking both sometimes the family engagement on a dairy or in any business and farming in particular, right, is such a blessing. And, also, you know, I don't spend my weekends with my brother hanging out, you know, with my father. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Yeah. Yeah. [Tim Cahart ]: So, you know, I'll speak a little bit on the on the neonics stuff here in a minute, but I just I guess reflecting on the journey of my career in agriculture and what it's been. And most specifically, I think growing up, I didn't really enjoy it. I was only able to play one sport maybe where my friends were playing two or three. I was forced to feed calves. I had responsibilities that in a lot of ways have shaped me into the person that I am today with a work ethic, with integrity, with tenacity, with aggressiveness when it's needed, be able to say your name and that you're proud of who you are and what you represent. When the lake failed the water quality thing, the TMDL, which at this point, I'm not sure how many years ago it was. I think there was a lot of finger pointing at the agricultural community for our role in the lake quality and water quality of the lake. And in some regards, it's forced us to be more vocal, to tell our story, to be involved, to educate the public because there's less and less people that grew up on a farm that are my neighbors, that understand what we do and why we do it, that know everything that goes into it with such razor thin margins that the way that we've chose to deal with it is to grow. And like it or love it, it's the way that we've remained to be profitable to bring kids back onto the farm. My daughter's twenty nine, with a family with three little kids who's there on the farm now, pretty much ready to continue on that path words that we have chosen. My nephew is twenty seven back on the farm, and we're hopeful to shape the next generation on our dairy with with with them. At the same time, being real about the commitment and the set and the sacrifice that you need to take to to to make it work. So I think agriculture has a lot to be proud of and a lot to say the good that we've done, the distance that we've come with water quality, the investments that we've made to to to practices that we can now do that twenty years ago weren't really an option. So we we can change. We've grown. We've done the right thing. Yes. There is still some low hanging fruit, and I look forward to, I guess, a more level playing field amongst all avenues of agriculture. Spoke a minute a minute ago about grants and subsidies and and and things that we need to survive. I wish nothing more than we didn't have to have that be a part of my business model. I really do. But as long as our nation, I guess, I would say has a cheap food policy, and we're all guilty of it. Groceries are expensive. They're expensive. It's not cheap to grow them. It's too bad that we can't get a price paid for our product that allows us to invest in these things that we need to do a better job on. So it's become a necessary thing that we have to be involved in and have accepted that a long time ago. Because if we don't, it puts us at a disadvantage. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: We're out of business. [Tim Cahart ]: There's all kinds of strings that are attached to all of those things that we speak about and for better or for worse, you you just take it on and you do it because it puts you in a better in a better position, I guess, to do the right thing or to do a better job or to be more efficient with your labor. Labor thing is a huge deal on farms. It's hard to find people. And right now, in the current climate, with the current administration, be it to the left or to the right, wherever anybody stands, I wish there was more middle ground, right, for the common good. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: We're having that conversation. I was gonna say it for the end, but you brought it up at a perfect point. This committee is gonna take on that. We've already started at Bard. We had people in here the other day that wanted to talk about politics. And one of the things that we had made an agreement with all of us here on our very first day is that we're going to be an agricultural committee, and we weren't gonna be a political committee. We had some folks in here the other day that wanted to talk about politics, and we kinda shut them down with that. But we are we are going to be moving forward. We've started conversations. I've I've had conversations with Senator Welch. I've had conversations with the with the with the the governor's people, not the governor himself, but the governor's people just to let them know in what way that we're gonna be so we won't blindside them. But we're going to start the conversation of a guest worker program for central for ag within the state. As you know, it's federal stuff. But I know this. We we don't get anywhere if you don't get the people closest to you interested in that as well, which is you folks, which we know the need is there, but also the the state in itself. So you're gonna be hearing some noise from that. I don't know about, you know, how successful we're gonna be, but I think we're gonna make a stab at it and a commitment to it. And then we'll see and we'll see we'll see where that ends up. But we we're hearing you. Yeah. We certainly we certainly know. And on the other part of it as well, not to be on a soapbox of it, but, you know, the people that are here, we know they're here. We we got their kids in school. Mhmm. We know they're here, and, and they're keeping us alive. They're keeping they're filling the jobs that nobody else wants to come and do. Mhmm. And I don't think it's really, really fair, no matter where you stand on it, that those folks go to the grocery store to live their lives, and all of a sudden, they'll come home. So we wanna make some noise about that. No no matter what you believe, some of us believe that, you know, that they should be here. You know, we should know who they are, and some people believe the other way, but we're gonna be like you, like your committee, and we're gonna stay neutral on that. And we're just gonna try to do what's best for Vermont farmers and and and try to bring something to you as a committee who is an activist. So Much appreciated. [Vijay Nazareth ]: If I can just add something very briefly to what you said, and I appreciate everything you said. We all have to set aside labels, clinical labels and other labels, and take a problem solving approach. Right. Right? What's the problem? What are the solutions? How do we get to where we wanna go together? So if we take that approach Right. We'll be we'll all be better off. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Yeah. And I and I and I well, I think we agree with that. Yeah. I think we do. [Speaker 7 ]: And you're gonna talk about NeonX? [Tim Cahart ]: Yes. I guess, you know, just knowing what I do know about the the bill that was passed and, I guess, you know, concerns of, I guess, one, the the application for exemptions have the the requirements been met, and they makes me a little bit nervous as far as having flexibility when I need it, when cards are played out, and we need to react faster than maybe the exemption process would allow us to react. That's one concern I have and just the overall availability of the seed. I believe the seed companies are gonna be able to do what they say. They you know, it's a question that we have when I sit down every year and talk with the seed salesman guy, like, okay. Here's where here's what we did last year. What are we doing for next year? And let's now talk about this layer of the of the neonic band and what it means to me for forage quality, for agronomic pests that happen, for weather situations that come like they do. So just the I understand that fit that in the in the legislative world, things need to be black and white, but flexibility is important at any given time. [Speaker 7 ]: Yeah. I'm not be fair, as confident as you are that the manufacturers are gonna set up to the plate. Yeah. I reduced the example of supply and demand earlier. We don't we're so small that we don't really we're insignificant Yeah. To the big, big manufacturers who's fairly bottom line is to make money. And so they gotta stop everything and retool to to manufacture a non treated seed. I just I don't know whether we're gonna be able to meet that by twenty nine. And even if you had New York and Vermont together, we're just a little tiny bit of their business. Yeah. [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: I agree. [Speaker 7 ]: Yeah. Tim, what the seed makers say? Did they did they indicate? [Tim Cahart ]: I keep getting reassurance that they're gonna have seed that's available. You know? There's other things that are being looked into. I mean, I don't really know what I have to say or do in the whole situation. I'm looking to buy a product from one of three companies that sell products that I need. So there's been some reassurance in that. You know, they'll often point to Canada and that the seed that's north of the border. [Speaker 7 ]: Different soil, different different [John Lucas ]: mold. Different pests? [Vijay Nazareth ]: And even even if you are able to get seed, you may not get the varieties that you use. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Exactly. And that's It's a [Vijay Nazareth ]: very important point. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: That's all it is. So the the the day of growth and all of that, I mean, it's all different. It all specific to the areas [Vijay Nazareth ]: where [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: you're at. [Speaker 7 ]: Yeah. And we should see if we can get some of the testimony. [Speaker 8 ]: Sure. We will. Yeah. Yes. Tim, you you'd mentioned your your your business is is [Speaker 7 ]: is family. And then early on [Speaker 8 ]: in your your testimony, Vijay, you talked about have pretty young people on into agriculture. And that's one of the things that, quite frankly, I have to worry about is our young people getting into agriculture. Are are there any plans or that we we could possibly facilitate having agriculture as a part of the CTEs in our our school systems? Because I I know, at least in in in Windsor County, they they they aren't. I I'm not sure about Addison or Bennington. But I think it's important because we are an aging population in Vermont in particular. Some people want to retire, and [John Lucas ]: I wanna be where you are. [Speaker 8 ]: And but it is it I I think it's important to get you know, who who are our next generation of of farmers, and how are we going to, one, get them excited about agriculture once you know? Full disclosure about being can be even in this committee. I was a little apprehensive about it because I did not know what once I was in. [John Lucas ]: You know? I I don't know how much you want me on [Speaker 8 ]: the farm, but I I but I I I'm I'm excited about advocating for [Vijay Nazareth ]: our farmers in the state. That's that's important. Yeah. And you can't assume that just because somebody grew up in a farming family, they gotta pick Yeah. Agriculture. Today, agriculture is competing with every other field now that are paying people well. And kids wanna do well even if they love agriculture. Mhmm. So those are the choices they are faced with. So we can't think of agriculture. You know, we have to think about it and say, where are the opportunities? How do we make it attractive? Can we make a career? Can you, you know, make a livelihood happen? Yeah. And and that's very important to think about it that way. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Yeah. Yeah. I wanna get you all in. Yeah. Throw it down. I'm sorry. No. No. You're fine. [John Lucas ]: Yeah. So, Don Lucas, farm in Oro, no, three hundred cows. With my two kids that are my son will [Lorenzo Whitcomb ]: be sixteen next month. Big month for him. [John Lucas ]: And then my daughter who's thirteen. I, again, was unconventional. I grew up in New Hampshire. My parents had day jobs, but we had a small farm where we grew some hay and had some livestock. And I just I always had a passion for agriculture, which led me to Vermont Technical College to the dairy program. I just didn't I always just really loved Vermont because that's where farming was happening. Where I was from, just you know? When I moved to Vermont in two thousand and eight, there was as many dairy farms in the state of New Hampshire as there is [Speaker 8 ]: in that was in Addison County at that time. Mhmm. [John Lucas ]: So that's what brought and then I worked on two other farms in New Hampshire when I got a school, and then I decided, like, I wanna do this on my own. And Vermont was where where I wanted to be because and specifically Addison County because, like, that's where firemen was happening. That's where the dealers were. You you don't have to drive an hour and a half to get a part for a tractor type of thing. [Ramsey Malish ]: So I ended up [John Lucas ]: with David Russell in Stark's Burrow, who, you know, are very well. Steve and I milked cows together [Vijay Nazareth ]: a couple of times. [John Lucas ]: I did a basically, I worked for Dave for a while, and then I bought a herd of cows. I rented that facility. I did that in two thousand and twelve. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Where did money come from when you did that, John? [John Lucas ]: The original loan was all FSA beginning farmer loan, which yeah. For a guy with, you know, a little bit of money in the bank and a pickup truck, like, that was the only way to get started. And, you Dave Russell was very good about grooming me and helping me out. Like, we worked together a lot even after I bought the cows. But I bought the cows in two thousand twelve, which is also, you know, right above the time the RAPs were all going into place. And so that's been a big part of my life within farming. Fast forward, the facility in Starksboro where it was a great start, but it was never gonna be I was never gonna be able to own it. It was always gonna stay in the family. And, again, with the RAPs, there was a lot of concerns about, you know, even manure storage and feed storage and all that stuff. And then just I'm always wanting I'm always thinking about what I'm gonna do next, and I really just wanna get out my own farm where I can do the projects that I wanna do for all to whatever level I wanna be. So that led me to Orwell, and I rented that farm for a couple years. Again, it was a worked out an agreement with the owners, and then I bought that farm in two thousand and three. It was an aging facility. Like, the like, where the cows live and everything was great. But like a lot of farms, a lot of money was put into manure storage, feed storage. So that's what I'm always thinking about. So, like, we've done things like, sell a manure pond, with equip money. DMP money helped do that, to increase our storage. Currently, I'm working on a project right now. We don't have adequate feed storage, and we had no leachate collection. So this summer, funding willing, we're supposed to be building leachate collection pond. And the idea is to collect from the two bunks that we have now, and then we're gonna have another pad area where, hopefully, we put bunkers someday. But, unfortunately, the bunkers don't write a check back to you. And they don't even increase the value of the farm, really, if I was to sell it. So it's very hard to do those projects without and, like, NRCS will help with the leachate collection part and with a little part, but they will put walls up in the storage facility. There's no there's not a lot of great avenues to fill that infrastructure that we need because it not only it it definitely helps preserve the environment, but, like, it helps our feed quality. It makes us more efficient farmers. You know, we have less shrinkage within our feed. So that's my big project for the summer. And then but other so with my cropping practices, I'm pretty much a hundred percent no till on my corn to cover crops every year. Cover crops, I received a grant from the agency ag to buy my drill, which, you know, a hundred percent of my corn ground was all drilled to wheat this fall. And that was great. You know, that was something that, again, isn't really in the checkbook to buy, but when there's extra help to do that. But the problem is just, like, the like, I say with these bumper silos and stuff, the projects are just getting so big. So we need to find other ways to make these projects happen. And, unfortunately, just, you know, with the the markets the way they are, there just isn't a lot of there's not a lot of extra cash to do that. Mhmm. But that being said, you know, we're working on it. We're trying to figure it out. We're having you know, we're just doing it one step at a time. And, you know, I'm a medium farm permit under the state. And, you know, they come out and they inspect me and then, you know, we've identified areas of concern, and those are the ones that we we look at first. And that's why this leachate collection, this is the thing that we think is gonna is top of the list. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: And that runoff's coming from where? [John Lucas ]: It's just it's not that we have an active discharge. It's just that where the bunker silos are, if there's leachate, it's not being collected into an air you know, into an area where, you know, a hundred percent we know it's not going into a ditch or a street or anything like that. It's more it's more of an area of concern. It's not an active violation or anything at this point, but we know it's something that we need we need going forward. Into that, you know, we've you know, myself and everybody in this room, like, we've done a lot in the last ten years as far as doing these practices. And, like, a lot you know, and a lot of it is is on our our own dot. Right. You know, there's, you know, like, the no tell planters and stuff. You know, there's a little money here and there, but, like, we're seeing real benefits from it too. Like, there's some real positive things that are coming out of this. So, like, I think the work that we've been doing is awesome, you know, and I think it can get better. But I think we should be rewarded for it too. I think if we're doing the no till, we're doing the cover crops, we're collecting the leachate. You know, irregardless of who's doing the regulation, New York has a pro they're set up now. I'll spare you all the acronyms and stuff. But, basically, they set their farms up, and they look at they address the areas of concern, and then they say, hey. You have five years to get to this point to fix it. And then when they fix it and they've got everything checked off their list, that also they have something they can take to the courtroom that says, we are following all the guidelines. We've checked off all our boxes. And when it goes before a judge and there there's a lawsuit brought up up before them, the judge says, no. This this arm's doing what they're supposed [Vijay Nazareth ]: to be doing. There's no validation here. [John Lucas ]: And I think that's what we really need. We don't need to just be told that way, you know, you need to do you need to fix this. You need to fix that. You need a little bit of you know, going back to what Rolando was saying, you know, what we would like to see is a little reward and a little protection for doing all the things that we're doing. Irrigorous of who's doing the regulating, but I think that I think it's gonna be most beneficial for everyone moving forward. [Speaker 7 ]: Yes. Thank you, mister chair. Thank you. I deeply appreciate your taking time out today to come. I know we sort of chiptoed around a topic. Well, so let me just start saying, this committee is the agriculture committee. It's not the natural resources committee. So we have a tendency to be more aligned with the agency of ag, and I'd say this regardless of whether Steve was in the room or not. And I think that's where our loyalties will lie. We did have testimony from Michael O'Grady, our legal counsel. The CLF lawsuit occasioned the EPA getting involved about k our cable permits. That we don't have anybody in the state with [John Lucas ]: a permit yet that I know about. [Speaker 7 ]: Yeah. So that'll be resolved in whatever manner that the court so choose. But the clear indication to me I better not say it's clear. Alright. Michael Craig might disagree. It looks like they're probably going to go with ANR in terms of, you know, interaction. I'm I'm hoping that at the moment, from what I understand, the point source is one thing, the nonpoint is the other thing. And Ag right regulates one of them and ANR the other. And that's probably the way it should be. I don't think we should change anything, I guess, my bottom line with what we're doing now. I think the AG agency does a great job because they're focused on agriculture just like this committee is. So I'll just let that go. But we did hear testimony from both Bob Gray and Bill Rowell earlier this week. And for those of you that are still in the dairy, it seemed like on a national level, the federal milk marketing order is now going to take the instead of the average of the four milk classes, it's gonna take the higher of of them and then add that together, and that'll be the hundred weight price. So to me, that's good news if you're in dairy because it's about twenty one and change right now. [Vijay Nazareth ]: I think a hundred weight, something [Speaker 7 ]: like that for a fluid, a class one. And I I could see it going up to twenty three, twenty four, maybe. I think we had in twenty two, we might have got to twenty five, something like that. There's a margin, and so we talked about that real raise within margin, and it is. So it needs to get north of twenty by quite a bit to make people feel relaxed and, you know, able to continue. So we have the federal delegation in yesterday, the day before. We made a point of saying to, senator Welch's office, senator Sanders, and congresswoman ballot that we felt strongly that they just let that go and don't monkey around with that milk order price again for a few years at least and just let it go and see what happens. So we came out strong support of seeing that hundred weight get up in the mid twenties. I don't know if it will, but it seems like if you take the higher of, it probably is going to do that. And then the chair had mentioned earlier that we we are interested in a guest worker program of some sort. Do folks here have h two a workers involved or not? Because they're in a different category. We're not allowed to. [John Lucas ]: Okay. That's right, Yeah. Okay. But maybe [Speaker 7 ]: we can do something that will [Ramsey Malish ]: It would be helpful. It the model's there. Right? H two a provides a perfect model. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Yeah. [Ramsey Malish ]: It does. It really should be that straightforward. [Speaker 7 ]: And then the other thing that I brought up was the the dates for spreading manure spreading. And and right now, they're locked in. I think it's December first or no. December fifteenth to April first. It's getting warmer earlier and staying warmer later for one thing. Direct injection wasn't around when those dates were put in or at least to the extent it is today. And I think those are two mitigating factors that I'd love to see you folks decide. It's time. Let's go out and spread. Well and, you know, we'll see. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: And we're gonna bring those people in, and we're gonna have to start to have those discussions because, again, as senator Kyle Moore said, a lot of the discussions and a lot of the rulemaking that went on didn't have the more range filling up the the pits with that time frame that had. They didn't have the amount of direct injections that were going on. We talked to five new farmers yesterday, five young farmers yesterday. Every one of them was doing direct injection. Every one of them. And so we're gonna we're gonna be having those discussions this year to see if we can move some of those timelines. [John Lucas ]: No. I would argue that calendar is actually hurting us. Yeah. Because guys are forced to be doing things because within a calendar year Right. When they shouldn't be, when they when you like to say, there's opportunities Yeah. Outside of that. And I think I get there again. You know, ten years has gone by. Farms are really cognizant of this stuff and really doing a lot of good things. And Yeah. Like, whoever threw the dart and picked those dates, that that's definitely the first thing I Well, [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: I think there's another oh, go ahead. [Holly Mangoch ]: No. Go ahead. No. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Go ahead. [Holly Mangoch ]: It's on a different topic. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: So Okay. Well, I think I think that I think just to have that date is wrong because the state's so different. You know? County is different than Orleans County. And and the weather's exactly different. I mean, it's it really, really is. I mean, we could have two feet of snow, and you guys have nothing. Our Chittenden County areas, you know, Lake Champlain Basin farmers have nothing. So but, anyways, go ahead. [Holly Mangoch ]: I acknowledge. I see what time it is. But just to touch back on what senator Major was speaking about education, I'm a native Vermonter. I grew up in Vermont. I went to college. I left, came back. I had never been on a dairy farm ever. Like it wasn't until I got hired by a dairy farm that I had never been on a farm. I grew up in Chittenden County, not knowing that those those silage bunkers had food in them. I thought they were full of shit. Like, the the level of, you know, the disconnect between the average Vermont school child and actually the environment they live in is really deep. And, yes, in Addison County, we have a wonderful ag program at the high school with the Hannaford Career Center. But, really, the kids who are going to be going there maybe are already interested in ag, have some acknowledgment and family history with it. We wanna touch all of the Vermont kids. We wanna have you know, if it would be great if every eighteen year old in Vermont had at least been on a farm and had some appreciation that they knew where their food came from. I think that would really change. You know, it might be the first step to making people feel okay paying more money for their food. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Like, because yeah. It might make them a little bit more aware where their food comes from. Right? Yeah. Well, we just we're over our time a little bit, which doesn't bother us too much, but we have to be on the senate floor at eleven thirty. So yep. Go ahead, please. [Speaker 8 ]: I like being here today. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Just quickly, any closing comments? Vijay, would you like to have any closing comments? [Vijay Nazareth ]: No. No. We we just appreciate your time and your interest in supporting Ag. Yeah. It's really important to us. And I know I'm very relationship oriented. I'm sure the rest of these folks are as well. You don't have to have a formal meeting. Happy to meet with you one on one anytime you want. Know, you come to our office. We come here. [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: Yep. We're coming to the bar. Well yep. Yeah. And I'll say this. The door's open. We need to hear from you. You guys are the ones that's the one in it. And I yeah. And I'll tell you, Senator May here kinda really kinda followed it up kinda with what what he said about he was a little nervous about being on his committee, but we are committed to agriculture. We really, really are. And I I hope it comes across in that way just of what we're willing to dive into and what we're willing to do. We listen. We wanna know, you know, the worst thing in the whole wide world for us to be sitting here trying to make decisions based on what we think we know versus what was really out there. So information is key to pull back through here. We're listening. If you think we need to hear more from you and you need to get back in here, please let us know. Our contact information is all over the web. Let us know. K. [Vijay Nazareth ]: Appreciate it. [John Lucas ]: That's very thank you very much. Appreciate all of you. [Vijay Nazareth ]: Who injects as well? You've do you [Chair Russ Ingalls ]: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [Tim Cahart ]: All of our commenters injected, I would say that, like, the incentive or the way that we're compensated through state and and federal dollars to inject, don't come close to paying.

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