SmartTranscript of House Transportation - 2025-03-27 - 10:45AM

[Chair Matt Walker]: Good morning again. It's Thursday, March twenty seventh of twenty twenty five here in House Transportation. We're getting started again around ten forty five, subject to regards and around advanced clean trucks. Matt Coda is with us and is sort of going to start to handle the introductions and piece and and queue up the testimony that we're going to to hear. So welcome to everybody that's on the Zoom. We appreciate you joining this morning. We have also one here in in person, so we appreciate it very much. And we'll get to those introductions in peace. And you can kinda queue us up to the direction and order that we wanna go and or you would like to put them through. So, please, welcome this morning, and please take it away. [Matt Coda]: Thank you, chair Walker. This is Matt Coda for the record with Meadow Hill. Here in my capacity as a lobbyist for the Vermont Vehicle and Automotive Distributors Association, what you may know as VADA. VADA is a trade association, which includes all of Vermont's new local car and truck dealers. And you've heard it from me before. I'll be brief before I hand it over to the subject matter experts, But Vermont's vehicle sellers are really between a rock and a hard place here and their customers. It's not just the sellers. I mean, news of the twenty five percent tariffs, possible twenty five percent tariffs from the Trump administration next week on imported vehicles and parts, coupled with the California requirements being imposed right here in Vermont on the next model year on vehicle manufacturers, both cars and trucks. And I know this committee can't do much about what's happening in Washington, DC about tariffs. And I recognize, as chair Walker reminded me, that you do not have possession of h sixty five, which would repeal the California EV mandates here in Vermont. But I do appreciate and I wanna acknowledge the eagerness of this committee to do some fact finding and to hear from those that are affected because together, federal and state regulations, these are impacting sellers and buyers, and that's certainly the purview of this committee. So before I hit it over the witnesses, I would just like to articulate that, Cam, thank you for posting a letter signed by Jack Castellaneta, a resident of Berlin, the owner of Formula Nissan in Berlin, and the president of the Vermont Vehicle and Automotive Distributors Association, laying out the implications and the facts behind Vermont's low and zero emission vehicle regulation. So please read that if you have a chance. We will continue to ask the House Committee on the Environment to allow either this committee to have possession of this bill, which repeals these these regulations, or the very least take it off the wall for consideration. But I wanna publicly thank this committee for taking on these tough issues, not dismissing them out of sight. This is not a lack of consumer education. The lack of these vehicles and the the ability for the consumers to purchase them, these are real problems. These California requirements here in Vermont, both on the car and the truck side. And I'd like you to hear from two subject matter experts, two Vermonters that are selling both cars and trucks and understand this this this regulation and implications very well. So first, I'd like to turn it over to Mark Alderman with the Alderman GFC in Rutland and then then Brent Dragon with r a Charlie Boys in Milton. So, Mark, take it away. [Mark Alderman]: Good morning. It's it's an honor to be here, to speak with you, folks today. So my name is Mark Alderman. I'm, principal owner and dealer operator of Alderman Chevrolet GMC and Alderman's Toyota in Rutland. And, I think one of the reasons I'm here, I'm I've been a tremendous, EV advocate for many years. In fact, I remember the exact moment, that I became, so enamored with EVs was when I test drove, a a two thousand seventeen Chevy Bolt that hadn't been to market yet. It was in two thousand sixteen, and I test drove it in a warehouse. And, so we were driving indoors, and I said, this is this is just an amazing vehicle, both from a performance perspective and from an environmental perspective. I've been the Chevrolet dealership in particular is one of the most successful battery electric vehicle GM dealers in the entire US. We actually outsold all dealers except for one in Walnut Creek, California for two consecutive years, in battery electric vehicles. And, I believe I've sold over two thousand battery electric vehicles from that location with selling about five hundred in the past two years. And I'm I'm passionate about battery electric vehicles and the and their benefits. And, however, I do have, I do believe there's two concerns, that, that your committee should know in achieving higher levels of adoption. First, I believe the mandate is is counterproductive. And the reason I feel this way is that one of the things I've been facing over the last two years is this building resistance. It's it's actually like an anti EV campaign where every time I advertise, I do a lot of my advertising in social media and a lot of it's not just advertising, but promoting a battery electric vehicles. I do a lot of videos. You can find videos of of me with the Bolt and with my personal vehicle, a GMC Hummer EV. And I get a lot of negative and hateful comments and feedback, from that. And when our customers buy an EV, we actually, over the last year and a half, have, we we actually need to kinda condition our customers and train them of how to handle negative feedback from friend friends and family, coworkers, community members who actually kind of attack them for making a choice of a battery electric vehicle. And, you know, we have to tell them, look. Most of the people that are against EVs have never driven an EV and and and all that. So we give them different points to be able to handle that. So so we felt it both in our marketing and also our customers deal with it. And the other issue that's substantial in advancing, EV adoption is that the incentives have created a lot of cheap, in particular, leases on EVs. And a lot of the people buying these EVs do not have access to overnight level two charging. And I believe as an EV enthusiast and advocate that there are two types of people that are driving EVs today. And there's people that are driving EVs that have overnight charging, and they're enjoying the benefits of less expensive energy to power their vehicle. And then there's there's people that do not have access to overnight charging that have to deal with the public infrastructure that is woefully woefully under established, and is a real challenge for people. It does, really limits access to charging and is very expensive and is not does not represent any savings of, fuel costs whatsoever. In fact, it may even be a premium of fuel. Now this negative cannot be understated because if I believe that if you were to poll the people that have access to overnight charging, you would be near ninety percent or more are all EV forever, never going back, and they are campaigning for EVs. But my firsthand experience with the people that rely on public charging and do not have access to overnight level two charging. These people are never driving an EV again and just the opposite. They're campaigning against EVs and and and counterproductive to the movement, so to speak. So with that, I'm open to any questions. [Matt Coda]: Really appreciate that, Mark. If I could bring on Brent so we can make sure we have a lot of time and maybe questions later. Brent, of course, we have two regulations, and and and one is cars and one is trucks. And they're different, regulations, but all have mandates of different proportions. But truck side is a is a slightly different story. Brent, please please are explain to the committee what that situation is for you. [Brent Dragon]: Alright. Thank you very much. My name is, Brent Dragon. Work with, Charley Boys Freightliner Western Star truck dealer. I have been selling trucks for forty years. And with the what we're running into with the electric, the BEV vehicles in our New York store, we're one year ahead over there compared to Vermont. So I'm dealing with it now. Basically, I have forty two ICE engines, diesel engine orders that I could sell in New York State or would have already sold in New York State, but we've not been able to sell one electric vehicle over there to sort of speed things up for you. The the cost of one of these trucks, just at one tractor is five hundred and sixty thousand dollars And then then to go along with it, you need a charger that is takes three phase power. In a lot of these places, you can't get three phase power into these jobs. We're running into that already. We here at Charley Boys are, putting in three charging systems right now into our dealership because it's mandatory by Daimler to have this for if trucks ever do get to a point where they have to charge. And it's gonna just those three chargers alone, it's gonna be about six hundred thousand dollars for us to install them at the dealership. The other issue that we're running into on this is the technology. A diesel truck will travel seven, eight hundred miles a day, whereas this electric vehicle, we're lucky to get two hundred miles a day. So, so really, let's say Pepsi Cola leaves Burlington. They can't go to Newport and back without without a charge, and there's no place to charge these because it's not the same charger as a car. The three phase power has really it's going to take a lot of infrastructure to get this up and running before these trucks can actually be able to be used. Those are the biggest things that I've I've basically come across, and we've of course, we've been since January first in New York State, learning of this. One thing that New York did end up doing is they just came out here maybe a month ago with a, a main or an update, I guess, allowing municipalities to for us to sell municipality trucks or state trucks that are diesel without having to sell an electric vehicle. That's allowed us to sell basically ten or twelve trucks in New York State without the sale of an electric, But that was the only change that we've seen so far. And, yeah, I guess that's probably about it, Matt. [Matt Coda]: I appreciate that, Brent. And for for the record, I, you know, I also work with the propane sellers, and I'm here in Providence at the a regional propane meeting. And and in Massachusetts and New York, we're trying to figure out how to have a battery powered propane truck. And the reality is is that the the fire code does not allow it because of the lithium battery that has to go on a propane truck. And lots of people will talk about the flexibility with this rule that it's not a hundred percent, that you can still buy a diesel truck. But what we're hearing from [Chair Matt Walker]: the truck dealers, and I'll pass this [Matt Coda]: over to Matt, which is which is you can electric. And, yes, you don't have to sell a hundred percent of electric, but you are diminishing your your capacity to sell diesel trucks to those that need it. If you just like eggs, if you can only sell a certain amount of diesel trucks and you have to have a diesel truck, and if you're gonna run a hazardous material such as heating oil, propane, gasoline, diesel fuel, the the competition for that smaller amount of diesel trucks that can have a green plate and be registered in Vermont or New York or Massachusetts will become intense, increasing the prices, increasing the cost of trucking, increasing the cost of goods. This is why this this this mandate is problematic for a lot of levels, not because we don't think we should reduce greenhouse gas emissions and have more efficient vehicles, but it'll have the opposite effect. You'll find in the trucking business that older, less efficient, more polluting trucks will be on the road longer if they can't get access to the cleaner, newer diesel trucks. You can hand it over to [Matt Preston]: Matt Preston. [Speaker 5 ]: Thanks, Matt. Hi, everybody. As Matt mentioned, not not in the state of Vermont, but we are currently being affected by the ACT regulation in Massachusetts. So we're a Peterbilt truck dealer. We we operate thirty dealerships, ten different states. Currently, Massachusetts is the one state that we're being affected. Happy to answer questions at the end. I think this is a subject with a lot of different tentacles on it. And, you know, I just want to be clear out from out of the out of the gate. I mean, we are not pushing against EV. It it's for us, you know, WITNESS being part of this, the the build up to it and currently living it, it's the challenges have just been it's not ready. Right. And and so I mean, a lot of the discussions that we've had are, you know, infrastructure, the the we our dealership here, I mean, it's a forty thousand square foot facility. We built it in twenty nineteen. We don't have enough power for the chargers to operate on this facility. So, I mean, we ordered chargers eighteen months ago. I still do not have a charger in place. And and, you know, like Mark had mentioned, you know, if you own an EV vehicle personally and if if you didn't have charging at your home, it would be a challenge. I mean, if you need a charge during the day, where you go, how long you have to spend, it's no different than in the trucking industry. Charging charging requirements are massive and charging times are long. And and so, you know, Brent had mentioned, you know, operating ranges up to two hundred miles. Well, at two hundred miles, the trucks need to charge for five to eight hours. And that's that's what the right kind of DC charger. And and so, you know, realistically, during, an operating day for a customer, if if that if if the range exceeds that expectation, that truck's gonna be parked for five to eight hours while it charges. And so a lot of the discussion in Massachusetts has been, well, you know, know, we're gonna put charging infrastructure along the througways, etcetera. It doesn't work. And, and I mean, we, you know, we embrace technologies as a dealer group. We, two years ago, you know, on the inception, when this is coming into play, we hired a, you know, an EV specialist, put them in, in a, in an EV car. You know, they were going out to see municipalities, private customers. Two years we've sold two trucks, you know, haven't delivered one yet. But, you know, we've been, we were turning over rocks anywhere, you know, had committed to the platform and it just, we get the same thing that, you know, if there is interest municipalities, they can't don't have the budget for it. And in and, you know, they they have the same limitations as the private sector. And that's, you know, limitations of the technology. It's it's range is a big concern for what a comparable diesel truck will do. The weight, equivalent electric tractor to a diesel tractor is five to seven thousand pounds heavier. So when you start talking about, you know, what what a truck can carry during the day, you know, how do the businesses make money on on product? You're limited there, plus applications. A lot of the in the commercial trucking side, you know, you're building everything, dump trucks, trash trucks, cranes. You know, there's hundreds of difference of different applications that we build and, you know, power power takeoffs that run the body, the very limited capacity on what you can run. So, I mean, you're talking about either just a tractor that hauls a trailer or you're talking about a box truck that's hauling goods, but you've got five to seven thousand pounds of weight that's being replaced by batteries with a limited range. So it it really the practicality has not been there. And, you know, it's been disheartening for us. You know, just not our our state, the state of Massachusetts has not been receptive at working with us, you you know, to say delay this dot yes. We understand this doesn't make sense. I think, you know, on the political platform that they ran on, it's just it's our problem. And and so for us as a business, I'm you know, this year, we're gonna spend upwards of two million dollars in floor plan interest on trucks because we had to change our business model and build a lot of trucks at the end of twenty twenty four that we're that we're sitting on. My lot is full of diesel trucks right now that, you know, to keep all of our sales staff working, all this sales admin to keep our customers updating into new clean diesels. We bear the burden of it. And and, you know, when our stocks gone, I don't know what we're gonna do. We're still actively trying to sell EVs, but really do not have any interest from the consumer side. [Matt Coda]: So so if I could just interject, I know you have, one of our customers in the room who could testify on on what his needs are in order to ensure that that goods get to market and our economy thrives. But in terms of those that sell the cars and trucks in Vermont and around Vermont, I'd certainly there's an opportunity to ask any questions, chair, if if you if you'd like. [Chair Matt Walker]: So you're ready for questions now? I know there are some, so I I just wasn't sure. We didn't wanna make sure everybody gets a chance. You have plenty of time to get through them. So I guess we can start. Representative Wells, you have a question? [Representative Ken Wells]: Yeah. From Brett Dragun there. So you've just to check the scoreboard here, you got forty two diesel trucks. You could sell those to your public in your region, but you can't because you're mandated to sell x amount of these electric vehicles. [Brent Dragon]: That that is that is correct. We have to sell one electric, and that truck has to be registered in the state of New York. And I have to have a copy of the registration before I'm given thirteen diesel powered units before I can order those. So it's quite a process like, like Matt was saying about, he'd ordered a couple of, excuse me, electric trucks. These trucks aren't coming as quick as what we would like. By the time that truck comes, we get it registered. I mean, we're at least a year away, and and it's really it's it's really putting a hurt on the the consumer, the customers for sure that buy buy five or six diesel trucks a year. [Speaker 5 ]: I can add some context to that. Go ahead. I was just gonna say. So, our ratio's a little different because of the product offering. But so for us here, I need to sell one EV to open up eight diesel credits. Now you can, as as long as we have an order in place, we can dip into our credits. Now the other thing the state allows us you to go into a deficit position. So, you know, I could go out and and sell diesel, a bunch of diesel trucks, But I'm in I'm in a credit deficit position that I owe those sales back. And and it's just not something as a private business we're willing to do. Hey. We don't know the penalty if you can't make up the sales. And, you know, it's it's one thing there's, you know, a lot of the rebuttal to this is, well, the no. This is the OEM. We're mandating the OEMs to build more EVs, and and it's it's on them. It's not because the OEM is not gonna they're not gonna do the same thing. They're not going into a deficit position. So they need us we're their sales conduit. We need to sell trucks. So, it's just kind of unless we sell a truck, we don't open up those diesel credits. [Representative Ken Wells]: How long will it be before they can, produce an electric vehicle that'll be viable and you can sell like you do your diesel or your gasoline rigs? Is that five years away? It's ten years away. Obviously, these trucks are not ready for prime time. It's ridiculous to force dealers to sell vehicles the public doesn't want. Can they come up with are they telling you they're gonna improve their product, which obviously is below par by far now? I mean, when you're you're going across the nation and you got a vehicle that only goes two hundred miles instead of seven hundred. And then you talked about the weight displacement. If there are seven thousand pounds heavier, obviously, you can't carry that seven thousand pounds in your vehicle, so you're restricted by your road, totals too. So I'm hearing nothing but negatives here. So are they gonna be able to come up with a viable truck that you can sell, Brent, or no? [Brent Dragon]: I I I really don't know. They're everything we've we're being basically forced to sell this electric vehicle because it's the only zero emissions, vehicle, I mean, engine or option that we have. The biggest thing I think, I think it's the technology does has been changing quickly. I've been involved with electric freightliner trucks for three years now. I've seen huge huge gains on it, over the three years, but we're still the the biggest thing I see is the infrastructure to charge a truck away from the customer's location, or the dealership. You know, people I mean, I do have customers that will probably would put a charge in system in, but it doesn't allow them to go anywhere. So but technology, yes, that technology has been changing very fast in that in this world for sure. [Representative Ken Wells]: When they force you to provide infrastructure at your business, six hundred thousand dollars to put in charge, you know, your lot, Who pays for that? Does that come out of your pocket? [Brent Dragon]: It does. It comes out of the dealership. Correct. [Matt Preston]: Pretty wholesaler. For the moment. [Chair Matt Walker]: Alright. Just yeah. You see you see Hey. Say thank you. I will say move on. Yeah. I'll go ahead and move on. Just a second. Let me refresh in case I have a question, Matt. You said you hired a an EV focus specialist sales rep to try to go out and Yeah. So I would gather that municipalities who are on board with the direction of wanting to promote the electric truck market. Can you tell me a little more about what their resistance and why you I would think that municipalities would be on board with trying to drive this state policy to or the policy to promote electric truck use. They're a target. They're they can help move this forward. What what's the struggle and hold up there? Why won't the municipalities pull the trigger so that you can move forward with salary? That would seem to be one of your regular target customers. Correct? [Speaker 5 ]: Yeah. Correct. And that's that's where we thought made the most sense. I mean, the it was the state implementing this. And so we thought, okay. Well, then the state's gonna jump behind it. In Massachusetts, the state exempted themselves, any municipal or state owned agency from buying, EVs, as long as it was a snowplow application or street sweeper. And I don't know what how they carved out just those two. But reality is when we talk to like people running these trucks in the, in the municipalities, it's the same, it's the same challenges that, that the private sector faces it's cost of the equipment, you know, they're, they're getting their budgets approved. So, you know, you can almost buy three trucks for the price of one EV. And then in just, just strict limitations, do they have enough power to run the truck? What is the application of the truck? What are the ranges required? A lot of the trucks that the municipalities use do, you know, three or four different jobs depending on what season it is. And, you know, you can't, you can't run a snowplow, you know, on an EV, just too much power draw. The you know, you can't run a dump truck, can't do hook lift. So it's it's unless you have just a straight straight body truck that, you know, is carrying pylons around or something, it doesn't work. [Chair Matt Walker]: Oh, so okay. Representative Casey, you're up next. Does [Representative Jim Casey]: does Lee Zeldin and the EPA had any impact as far as what the future looks like for you guys? [Matt Coda]: So if I could take that, if that's alright, Representative Casey. So certainly, the this is a state regulation adopted by the agency natural resource agency agency natural resources promulgated by them at the advice of the climate council. It's in the climate action plan. It was accepted by legislative committee on administrative rules, and it takes effect with model year twenty twenty six. Certainly, the Trump administration could revoke California's ability to impose this mandate in California, which would then revoke the ability of Massachusetts, New York, and Vermont to impose similar mandates. We either adopt the California standard or the federal standard. However, that has not happened yet. [Chair Matt Walker]: Is that [Matt Coda]: It it Is that [Representative Jim Casey]: the tailpipe standard that they they adjusted or or is it just the tail is that what it was? [Matt Coda]: So California sought permission and received a waiver in order to impose regulations on what vehicles manufacturers can deliver to the state based on the nineteen seventy law called the Clean Air Act. They were given that permission by the EPA under the previous administration. Whether that that is revoked, whether there'll be a lawsuit afterwards, that is something that we certainly don't have any control over because that's all happening in DC. We are we have followed California. California has fought for this ability to mandate these vehicles. We have tied our wagons to California. We could either revoke that, repeal that, rescind that, change that in some way, or it could be happening in DC. But right now, neither is happening, and we're in this we're in this gray area. And as I said at the beginning, we're in a the sellers of vehicles and the buyers of these vehicles, particularly on the truck side, the buyers of vehicles are stuck between a rock and a hard place. [Matt Preston]: Brooks and what? [Representative Ken Wells]: Let's say we get past the fact they cost three times as much as a diesel. Let's say we get past the fact that they can only go a third of the mileage of a diesel. Let's get past the fact that you can't charge them anywhere or you gotta charge them for a day and a half. Do they have the same performance? Can they handle your workload when they're on the road map? [Speaker 5 ]: Yeah. Other than the weight restrictions. I mean, there's a lot of applications that the EV makes sense. The the challenge with the mandate where it's like you will sell this percentage, it depends on it depends on the product offering you have, like, you know, city transit buses, downtown Boston. That makes that makes sense that, you know, they're not going very far. They're not carrying a lot of weight. You know, we call them like shunt trucks, like trucks that are working around in a distribution center, moving trailers. Like a lot of our customers have adopted and bought electric, yard trucks. Makes a lot of sense to say, you know, everybody shall do a percentage of this. It just it's not it's not feasible or reasonable. [Representative Kate Lalley]: Thank thank you. So I couple of questions, and pardon me for my ignorance on big trucks. But so what what manufacturers make these big trucks? Like, is General Motors [Representative Mollie Burke]: are they a manufacturer [Representative Kate Lalley]: of big trucks or just smaller, more consumer trucks, for example? Because I know that General Motors has I think they have a a goal for their company to be completely electric by twenty thirty five. So I'm just wondering, you know, if manufacturers have these certain goals, how are we gonna get there together? So that that's my first question. What manufacturers are making these big trucks? And does General Motors like, are they also a manufacturer of these knowing that they have some climate goals? [Matt Coda]: Mark, maybe you can answer the question about the GM specific. The the truck regulation so the the a c ACC two, which is the light duty vehicle regulation, is in one basket. And then the other is the advanced clean truck regulation, which includes class three all the way to class eight, class eight being tractor trailer, class three being larger pickup trucks and vans. But but, Mark, maybe you could answer what what models you have, the GMC mix. [Mark Alderman]: So, you know, excuse me. The so I I'm not in the big truck business and don't know a lot about it other than I think I think of it in terms of three tiers. You've got the the big tractor trailers, so that's a heavy duty. Then you have medium duty is, some of the trucks that we see doing more, like, statewide deliveries type things, and then you have light duty trucks. So I'm in the light duty truck business, which is the half ton, three quarter ton, one ton pickup trucks. And so I'm not in the medium duty business. GM is in the medium duty business. They're not in the heavy duty business at all that I'm aware of. So [Representative Mollie Burke]: Yeah. [Representative Kate Lalley]: Now I guess I guess I'm just wondering, if some of these truck manufacturers have goals to get all electric by twenty thirty five, yet the technology's out there. We're hearing a lot of pushback. You know, how do they expect to get there? [Mark Alderman]: Well, just from General Motors' perspective, I don't believe they're including their medium duty trucks in the the the goal, which they view as a as a true north, and and I guess it's an aspiration aspirational goal of being zero emissions by twenty thirty five. But [Matt Coda]: And that and that's an important point. These are different manufacturers, have different goals and and directives, but these are mandates imposed on less than a dozen states, Vermont being one of them. And so so there are companies that can continue to sell gasoline and diesel powered vehicles in southern states and New Hampshire with no restrictions at all. It's Vermont, New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts that have imposed these mandates following California. [Speaker 5 ]: So, like, just an example, like, just as a manufacturer, Cummins diesel Cummins engine company. I mean, they're they're probably the largest engine man diesel engine manufacturer in the in North America, at least. For them, like, you know, the technologies that are moving forward, natural gas, they're investing a lot of money into. But I mean, that's that's not a zero emission fuel. Hydrogen is another fuel that is is being worked on significantly. It has the same challenges with infrastructure and the cost. But those are I I wouldn't say that that all the manufacturers are putting their eggs in the EV basket because I don't know the how sustainable Bullitt is based on, you know, applications. So there's a lot of different technologies they're working with. [Representative Kate Lalley]: And one more question on the charging, and I just wanna make sure I'm understanding. I think it was Brent talking about you got a big truck, and then you you know, our infrastructure is inadequate right now, and I don't I don't disagree with that. But you were referencing that it takes five to eight hours to charge a truck. I'm just trying to understand that because my experience of a level three charger is, you know, it takes about a half an hour for a passenger car. So does it really take five to eight hours to on a level three charger to to charge a truck? [Brent Dragon]: Yeah. On on of course, the truck is three phase power. I I'm not I'm not familiar with the electric cars at all, as far as charging them. But as far as a truck, to if if you put the very, high end electric charger in, which is basically that just the charging unit alone is one hundred and fifty to one hundred and sixty thousand dollars. You can charge a truck from basically zero to eighty percent in three hours. If you if you do the basic, system, which is still three phase power, I mean, that that unit there is a hundred and ten to a hundred and twenty thousand dollars. That's a that's about six six hours of time to charge that truck, back to eighty percent. [Representative Kate Lalley]: And and, Matt, can you just clarify, like, is phase three power and level three EV charging, are those the same? Do those mean the same thing, or are those different? [Speaker 5 ]: We like, I mean, they're they can charge they you can do different charging. It just depends on how fast it's gonna charge a vehicle. Like the fastest DC chargers, the trucks will charge at a hundred and fifty kilowatts at a rate of a hundred and fifty kilowatts, which is a lot higher than a car will. Just to put it in perspective, in one day operating, operating and charging a truck that a truck will consume more power than the average household consumes in a month in one day. [Matt Preston]: Thank you. Yes. Representative Burke? [Representative Mollie Burke]: Yeah. Thanks for coming and talking about this. And, Mark, I believe it was your father who came into our committee. I don't know. Some years ago. We'll talk about EVs on your lot. So [Chair Matt Walker]: Oh, that [Mark Alderman]: that was me. [David Malloy]: Yes. Yes. [Matt Preston]: Oh, yeah. [Mark Alderman]: That was me. [Brent Dragon]: That was [Matt Coda]: That means [Representative Mollie Burke]: you look younger. That's great. Yeah. [David Malloy]: You had an age today. [Representative Mollie Burke]: I couldn't remember. I just remembered. I thought it was a family business. Right? Yes. Anyway, thank you for coming back. So, you know, I mean, a lot of this came from the California thing, came from the clean airway. And diesel trucks are notoriously bad for air quality. I mean, that's one of the things that we're talking about. You know, we're talking about carbon emissions, but also air quality. And we're really in a pickle here with that. You know, a lot of asthma and just in general, you know, you heard about all the different, pollutants that are in that are in specifically in diesel. And I think, you know, a lot of the impetus for these kind of rules is to clean up our air. The Clean Air Act was a very, very important part of our our environmental history. And and then, you know, then there's also carbon emissions. And and I'm sorry that you're getting all that negative stuff about about EVs. And it seems to be that I don't know. You know, it's as somebody myself who's been, you know, reading scientists and reading all the dire predictions for what we're facing as a as a as a world in terms of climate, I feel that we need to be on a, like, a World War two sort of mobilization to sort of take care of that. But, you know, a lot of people don't feel that way. And it's it's it's sort of it's troubling that we can't solve these problems and make make it okay for you know, make businesses be able to operate and and yet take care you know, anyway, I'm just I'm just sort of just sort of expressing this frustration, and I hear your concerns and your frustration too. So just trying to put those together. Representative [Chair Matt Walker]: Peters, can I [Representative Chris Keyser]: So I just like to run this through as is and and where we would be as far as the the the industry, if you will, or the or the business? So it goes along as it is. You can't sell any diesel trucks here in Vermont or in Massachusetts or New York for one reason or another. And now it's five years and we gotta replace some trucks. We some may be electric, but the vast majority are still gonna be some type of, liquid fuel. Is that mean, New Hampshire, and Maine are gonna start registering trucks that run-in Vermont? [Matt Coda]: So I'm I'm happy to answer that, representative Kieser, and and it's in a very unpopular answer, which is to say we have two different regulations with the truck and the car. On the car side, you can still it's not a mandate on the consumer. You can go to Keene. You can go to Lebanon. You can buy a a a gasoline powered vehicle and bring it if it's a light duty vehicle and bring it to Vermont and register it. And the manufacturer, it won't count for or against them. But on the truck side, as you heard both Brent and Matt Preston explain, it needs to be registered in Vermont. So on the the the car rule, if Vermonters do not buy the cars that the mandate requires, the only entities that will be harmed will be the hundred new car dealers and their thousands of employees and all the income taxes that they pay and business income tax. The purchase and use tax will still be collected by the state of Vermont when you register that light duty vehicle. But on the truck side, the regulation requires that vehicle be registered in the compliance state, which is Vermont. So if you own a propane company or a heating oil company or a Coca Cola company, you can avoid the regulation only by registering the vehicle within a different state. That means you would have to open up a office or a a store or a warehouse in New Hampshire and trade your green plates for white plates. That will harm the revenues collected by the state of Vermont and that is spent on maintaining our roads because that purchase and use tax will not go to Montpelier. It'll go to Concord. But if that's the only way that you can stay in business, that you can pick up milk and logs and granite in Vermont is by trading green plates for white plates or going out of business, you gotta do what you gotta do. [Speaker 5 ]: That is happening today in Massachusetts. So I I mean, you know, we we became live January first. So there's three things, like, you know, I've said before that trucks have a shelf life. And and, you know, everything everything you touch comes on a truck. And and so, I mean, the trucks are continuing to operate. So here in Massachusetts, we we bought more trucks than we normally would at the end of the year. And so we've got a lot of stock. So, you know, we have customers buying our stock trucks, which are still registerable in the state. We're rebuilding old equipment. So we've got a lot of customers that are that are having us rebuild engines so that they get a second, maybe even a third life out of their trucks. And and then we have customers that are buying new trucks and registering out of state. Back to the the comment about tailpipe emissions. The one one good thing that California recognized and did years ago, they were giving incentives for customers to upgrade diesel equipment to new clean diesels. And so if, you know, the as an industry, it's been kind of a a stair step approach on cutting emissions. And since since two thousand four was kind of the real major first initiative to cut tail pipe emissions, a a truck built in two thousand four versus a truck built today, that truck that truck that twenty twenty one year old truck puts out sixty times the emissions of a truck today. So it it that one truck accounts for sixty trucks today. So you talk about cleaning up the emissions, get rid of the old trucks off the road, incentivize businesses to upgrade. [Chair Matt Walker]: So as far as the timing of these goes, we have two witnesses that are in house. Are you able to stay online while we hear from here and then be available for all the questions, or would you okay. So I'd like to get the next witness in. Bill, if you wanna handle how you want to do that, and then we can ask we're gonna if they're gonna still be available for questions is what I'm Yeah. [Mark Alderman]: If you wanna [Chair Matt Walker]: go real quick. [Speaker 12 ]: Yeah. Mark, I appreciate your perspective. Just wanna note, I did buy my second EV a bolt from your company. You did a very good job. They did a very good job of [Chair Matt Walker]: sort [Speaker 12 ]: of going over everything. And I think your, anecdotal information about the need for overnight, you know, charges, is really key to, to make them work for, Vermonters. And, I'll just note this committee has tried to, encourage more and fund more, at home, level two charges. So [Matt Preston]: Yes. But [Speaker 12 ]: I agree. I think we all agree the infrastructure as far as for vehicles, that's a a key restriction. [Mark Alderman]: Yeah. If I could just share a quick story on that. I had a lady from Poultney, a mom, two two kids, that and she had a bolt, and and her concern was that it wasn't charging as fast as it had been charging. Now this was about January, and, she had a fifty k w charger in in the Poultney area, hundred percent dependent on public charging. But what we found was that she was in because there was nothing around the charger, so she would take her kids and go and sit at the charger in January, and she's got the heat cranked up in the car. So for every kilowatt going into the car, there's half a kilowatt going out. And and this was like, her entire life was turned upside down. Like, she wasn't enjoying the benefits of an EV whatsoever. And and I begged her and her significant other to try to let me have direct access with landlord to see if I could convince the landlord of the benefits of installing a level two charger. And so these are things that are happening every day with people that we have now put into, not just us, but, you know, people that we've put into EVs that are dependent on public charging. And so it's it's very concerning for me personally. [Chair Matt Walker]: Okay. Let's thank you. Let's get people in the room and then we'll have everybody available for questions. [Matt Preston]: You used to have extra chairs over here. So I'm just gonna jump in real quick. [Chair Matt Walker]: Okay. They [Matt Preston]: introduce and then have Dave come over. It's the real we call the real people sitting in the real chair here. So Bill Smith, the representative of my truck and bus association, have for quite a while. I've been on this committee, over the years and only once earlier this year, but we did talk about this issue then. And, from my membership, what we see is that the difference between, if you will, cars and medium and heavy duty trucks here is orders of magnitude more complicated for the trucks than it was for the cars and for the light two vehicles. And that's the concern here is that it's it's they're not there yet. It's not ready for prime time. I think you heard from some of the previous testimony that that sentiment, in a way that half of your vehicles were and are and are making a difference out there. So this industry, obviously, we're the truck and bus association. And, you know, this is what my members use to provide the services to all of you and the rest of the Vermonters and to the rest of the nation as well. Whether it's Bellavest Trucking running in all lower forty eight states or it's Barrett Trucking running in every town in the state of Vermont with their dump trucks for salt, or it's John and Bruno up at B and B Trucker running one truck east to west every month. They're all gonna be affected by this, and they're all worried about it. And my members who are also truck dealer members, and I do think we have six different truck dealer members that are also members of my association are telling me that they're very concerned in what you heard from from the gentleman on the screen behind me. And every member I've talked to has the same concerns, that, you know, Vermont does not have the power to successfully impact our environmental crisis on its own. But Vermont does have the power to, delay these rules so that we do not significantly harm this industry in the state of Iran. You do have the power to do that, and we're asking you to do that. And I've in twenty years, I've never been as concerned about this industry as not today because of this issue. And having said that, I thought that Matt in particular addressed the, you know, the emissions reductions over the last thirty years have been amazingly successful. Matt told you the number the same numbers I've heard for years. And the phase three power issue versus level three, those are kinda apples and potatoes. I mean, phase three is the power coming into your building provided by the utility. It's a certain level of, you know, wire size and and what amount of basically, not output it can produce to whatever's in the building. And level three charger is one that can access that and provide the charge. But when you look at these engines that are in these trucks, and I'm sure that the previous decimals people have could tell you a lot more than I can. But, again, orders of magnitude greater. You know, you you have these four hundred and fifty, five hundred kilowatt plus motors that you're trying to charge in a limited amount of time because of the drivers are limited in the amount of time they can be on the road before they have to stop every day. Is it eleven hours of driving? They will go over that with you. Thanks, Dave. And and what that means for them and for these businesses is that This this technology is not ready for prime time yet, and it's going to be a real harm to my members. If you don't do something about it. Thank you. [David Malloy]: Hello, everyone. I'm David Malloy from Bellavance Trucking. I've been in front of the committee before on different issues. My background is I retired from UPS after thirty four years. I worked in thirty three states for them in a lot of different capacities. When I retired from UPS, I came to Bellavance Trucking. I've been there for the last twelve years. I was on a three to five year commitment, but they're good people to work for. So that's why I'm still there. I do wanna address the issue as a trucking company. However, I do I would like to just say one thing about your state, about the clean air. It's something that we don't talk about. Nobody talks about how far we've come on the clean air. Just one exhaust system on these new trucks cost around thirty thousand dollars. One filter alone is twenty five hundred dollars, and it takes another fluid to be put into the exhaust to clean the air that's coming out the tailpipe. A lot of people don't have any idea that that takes place. But over the past and Brent Dragon can tell us when that really came into effect. I don't recall when it came into effect, but it's it's mandated that to get the tailpipe ignitions emissions as low as it is right now, the DEF fluid that goes into the exhaust was mandate. And these vehicles, our vehicles, all of our vehicles pass the California clean air and, federal emission standards. So, you know, it's something that, you know, obviously, zero emissions is way better, but we also still have businesses to run. So let me just back up a little bit while that was on my mind. I wanna make sure that we [Representative Mollie Burke]: can correct. Steve, that's in queue. I I worked on anti idling bill some time ago, I don't know, five or six years ago, and we had heard that UPS was turning off all the trucks and not idling it. Is that correct? [David Malloy]: That's correct. Actually, we do that too. Yeah. There there UPS does that. There there's a lot of companies out there that have really tried to lower their admission standards. When you lower your idling and everything else, you're also lowering your your cost of running your own businesses too. We our our trucks will shut off after five minutes. And, you know, drivers don't like it, but we went to a hybrid auxiliary power unit, which keeps the drivers cool in the summer, warm in the winter. And that's a battery system. That's an additional, I believe it's eight batteries on our vehicle to help support that that one unit. So and we do run solar panels on our rigs too. So but getting back to to how it affects over the road trucking company, we buy we're on a five year trade cycle. And as you've heard from the dealers that when you're on this five year trade cycle, you're getting the latest and greatest on emissions at tailpipe emissions and miles per gallon. Our miles per gallon on the two thousand twenty five models that we just put on the road, we're getting and it's the same freight. We we haul the same freight. We are getting two two miles per gallon more than our two thousand twenty four miles, and that is huge for the amount of miles we turn in a year. So, again, you know, we're focused on, you know, efficiencies. Bella Vance is is a fourth generation business, and I've worked for the last two generations, and they have their eyes on horizon. Where are we going? How are we gonna stay in business for the next generation? And through, you know, a lot of the upgrades, we have taken advantage of efficiency Vermont for our buildings and stuff. But when it comes to buying trucks for our two thousand twenty six models, we're gonna buy twenty trucks. If we have to buy two electric trucks, it's not gonna happen. The difference in cost for just the two of them is gonna be seven hundred and three thousand dollars. Where's that money gonna come from? Freight rates since COVID has ended have gone down the tubes. Some of the industry is just tightening up more and more. So your freight rates aren't there. A lot of the smaller truckers are going out of business because they just can't afford it. This Clean Air Act affects eleven states. We service, as Bill said, the lower forty eight. So where are we gonna charge? You know, it's just the infrastructure isn't there yet. We're not against it. It's just not there yet. You know, you you were talking about can the vehicle, the d e v vehicle do the same job? We hope it it can in the future. Because if you get in the cabs of our trucks now compared to the cabs that we're buying ten years ago, it's like riding in a car now. It's that smooth. It's that quiet. You don't hear any noise out of our vehicles. We just did a decimal count on recently, and, you know, we are we don't change a thing. However, it comes from the manufacturer, that's where we run. We're not trying to get any more performance by changing an exhaust or whatever the case may be. We stick to the rules, and we run the business. So when you're on the five year trade cycle, you are getting the latest and greatest. A big problem with the electric is, and as you've heard the time it takes to charge, the real problem is none of that lines up with the DOT regulations of hours of service. So your hours of service, a driver in a twenty four hour period can drive eleven hours. So say a driver's say the average speed is forty seven miles an hour. You know, getting on, getting off interstate traffic or whatever. That's about five hundred and fifteen, five hundred and seventeen miles a day that they can go in that eleven hour period. But if you can only go two hundred miles and you gotta stop for a couple hours to charge, the driver's book has already started. He only, can go fourteen hours max time in that that time frame. So if he's waiting in line for a charging charger, you know, at a truck stop or whatever, that's all on duty time. He's behind the wheel of that truck. It isn't like he can go off and extend his day at any time. He still only has twenty four hours in the day or she has twenty four hours in the day. So once the clock has started, you've got fourteen hours. You can pause the clock, but you still only got twenty four hour fourteen hours in a twenty four hour period. So if you start at midnight, you start at five, it really doesn't matter. What's the twenty four hour period? So the charging and being able to keep going does not coincide with DOT regulations. And until there's a faster charger, more charging stations I mean, parking is a nightmare now. So, I mean, if anybody travels anywhere on the highway, you see tractor trailers park pretty much any trying to, you know, fall within the regulations for the ten hour break. But that problem aside, there's just not enough chargers. I mean, look what happened when, we had the lunar eclipse last year up in Maple, you know, with with all the out of staters coming in with their Teslas. You know, they they had had traffic control, you know, and people were waiting six hours to get charged. Yeah. It only took thirty minutes to charge it when I got there, but I wasn't the first one in line. So it's, you know, it's six hours. So that's what we're up against right now. And, again, it's it's important for people to know that we are not against moving forward with clean energy and technology. It's just it's not ready now, and that's what our problem is. You know? And one thing that, you know, we heard from Matt saying that people are looking outside the state. You take the big carriers like the the FedEx, the UPS, and stuff like that. The only thing they register are the delivery vehicles in state. All of their class a registrations, if you look at most of them, they're Indiana. And so for us, if that's if we had to turn to that, we probably would. And Vermont I mean, we we have a hundred and fifty three employees depending on us. How are we gonna say, you know, stay sustainable, You know, by paying this extra all the time, we can. The freight rates aren't there to do it. So you set up an LLC in Indiana and register your trucks there. Or we open an office, you know, across the border in Woodsville, New Hampshire and, you know, started registrations there. So from it's not a win win for Bellavance trucking or the state of Vermont. And, again, we're asking for a pause. We're not asking to abolish everything on it. You know, there's there's some good things about this, but maybe keep the sizes of the vehicles that actually do sell right now people are interested in, and we can, you know, power them up, but not class eights. Just a little footnote, we wanted to put in four charging stations for our employees that have electric vehicles in our locations. And even though we have three phase power, Green Mountain Power said they don't they can't guarantee that we have enough power in that area to support four charges. And there's a transfer station right above the right above us, but they're saying you may not have to be able to charge four. So and run the business. We're like, how can that be? But that's what they're telling us. So it's not as easy as just flipping a switch. [Representative Jim Casey]: Representations. The sounds like to me, like, if you guys went through and did everything that the our government wanted you to do, you would the cost of goods are gonna go way up. [David Malloy]: You you have no it has to be passed on to the consumer. [Matt Preston]: Yeah. You guys aren't gonna [Chair Matt Walker]: eat it. [David Malloy]: Yeah. Well, here's an example. The trucking industry as a carrier, the margins are very low, and there's so many variables. So think of the people that you know that own businesses, retail. If they wanna increase their business, they just bring in another product and offer their their customers more to choose from. For us to expand our business, we have to buy what is right now, we're paying a hundred and ninety six thousand for one tractor. That goes up to five fifty or or five seventy, whatever, Brent has just told us. Where does that money come from? Now the state is offering incentives. I the agency of national resources on the twenty eighth of January put out a education type packet and had a meet you know, a Zoom type meeting to educate people, but it's not accurate. You know, what they were saying, it's good if you're trying to sell the goodness of the ACT rule. But as a as a business owner, it's not accurate at all. That money that is available right now through the Volkswagen program, and I think there's three other state programs and a couple federal ones, I don't see any of them that are gonna write Bellavance a check for the five for the seven hundred and three thousand additional dollars it's gonna cost us just to replace the equipment we have. To expand, again, we need to to have a hundred and ninety six thousand dollar tractor plus another employee. And you're trying to stay competitive. Yeah. Exactly. So [Matt Preston]: I'm sorry. Go ahead, representative. [Representative Ken Wells]: So as this grind continues here and you can't move vehicles that are on your lots for you gentlemen, how long before they start you start losing manpower as far as losing jobs because the product won't sell. Does that come in? [Brent Dragon]: Go ahead, Matt. [Speaker 5 ]: Yeah. I I think that if something doesn't change, we'll lose our we'll lose our sales staff in Massachusetts. As I mentioned before, we had we've got several we've got a lot of stock on the ground now, but I mean, that comes at a price. My floor plan interest per month out of this location is three hundred thousand dollars So, you know, the the real big impact is that when you look at new orders, you know, I don't have one truck on order that's gonna be registered in Massachusetts. And so when all my stock sells, we have trucks sold. They're going they're going out of state. And and you just look at tax revenue, like all my competitors, we now have become closer with this issue and we talk a lot. You could count on one hand the amount of trucks that are on order for Massachusetts registration. And a typical year in Massachusetts, like, class six through eight, three thousand trucks. So, you know, rough math, it's twenty six million dollars in in in taxes paid. [Matt Coda]: And just just to put a pause, sorry to interrupt, but but to represent Will's question, what Matt is experiencing in Massachusetts and Brent in New York, they're one year ahead of us. That's coming to Vermont unless something changes in model year twenty twenty six. We're trying to be proactive here. This is what's coming to Vermont. [Chair Matt Walker]: Okay. Along that lines, the emissions was discussed, and then I thought that there's interesting exchange. You have to say that that probably if you'd gone back at that point, there would have been a a a view that there's no way that a truck in a short time is gonna you know, the emissions would take sixty trucks less. So the public policy of the direction in the long term helped. And it was probably an incredibly difficult transition. But I don't think anybody would argue that having substantially less emissions isn't a good thing in terms of just air quality, quality of life, and what it did to try to, I suppose, help reduce the smog in some of the cities where it started and the states where it started, but the the regulation started. So the policy can work in terms of public policy. The behavior has changed. What you're also telling me out in in Dave and particularly, you know, if the new trucks are gonna get two more miles per gallon and we just got off a floor presentation and a bill that, you know, says that revenues in in our state are continuing to go down in terms of gasoline, taxes, but diesel has been steady for a long time. Well, you just told me as these new trucks come in, we're gonna start to see the diesel revenue, drop a little bit as well. And that has been almost an unbelievable consistent line for twenty years of what the amount of diesel in Vermont that's been. But you're gonna say with the new trucks and perhaps that's gonna go down. So that's a result of a public policy, and we're gonna put more pressure on our on our t bill. But that also means less fossil fuels are being burned. They're far more efficient. Far more emissions are far better. They're more efficient. Those are good long term things that speak to a positive public policy, but we're in a really difficult transition period by getting through that without undue harm to the inflation that is already out there, to the monitors, etcetera. Is it as simple as what you're asking for is and maybe it's not word simple, not right. Delay and work with the technology as manufacturers continue to improve that that's the answer? You're not suggesting that it'd be completely, repealed and walked away from? Or you're saying you support the direction that the idea of improvements and continued technology or saying completely cut it off? So please go ahead. Yeah. [David Malloy]: I I feel on this note, and I and I can't speak for the dealers and the technology, but we we are part of different trade groups, different benchmarking with very large trucking companies. I think if something isn't in place to say, you know, you know, some standards aren't in place by, you know, you had mentioned twenty thirty five. Maybe not what we have on the on the books right now, but I still think we need to look at the hydrogen option that Cummings has been looking at. It's very clean burning. And, you know, there are the the pro or the natural gas options, stuff like this. But the hydrogen and the problem that you have with that is you if you look across the country of where you can buy or fill a hydrogen vehicle, it's very far few and far between. But from what I've read on the hydrogen, there has been significant increases in their technologies, and you really don't you know, the the distance in your power are similar to diesel, but there's also another biodiesel out there that's soy, from soybeans. And the same chem has the same chemical makeup as the fossil fuel, but it's a renewable energy. Why are we not, you know, promoting that instead of what's coming out of the ground? You know? Yeah. We've got the land in Vermont to promote farming. You know? Why aren't we saying let's look at other alternatives as well? So not just electric. You know, we gotta keep in mind what are the what are the other states? What is the DOT doing with hours of regulation? You know, hours of service regulations. Are they ever gonna work with us when it comes to electric vehicles? To to say that the charging for an over the road trucking company has gotta be done at your terminal, we'd have to have well, as we stand right now, we've got seventy over the road trucks or seventy three over the road trucks. For them all to be there at one time is not feasible for one. They wouldn't be. So we wouldn't need seventy chargers, but we'd need forty of them, you know, at at hundred and whatever thousand dollars a piece. And then where's the power what what's the power drain gonna be then? I mean, we're gonna have to have a nuclear reactor out back. I mean, so what are we gonna do? You know? So it it's those types of things that I think something should be said and done to keep us on track for clean air. But the way it's wrote right now is just not feasible at all. [Chair Matt Walker]: And being a year ahead of us, you have comments on that area [Matt Coda]: in terms of what you [Chair Matt Walker]: would ask your states to do or what you would recommend that we do before we get there? [Brent Dragon]: As far as far as what we're seeing in New York, yeah. It's it's just I I just think we're too we're we're going at this too fast. The one thing we're a very small dealer in New York. We have a place in Plattsburgh. And like I said, I have forty two orders that are sitting on my desk. The the state of New York has lost six I just looked it up, basically six hundred and eight thousand dollars of sales tax that they would have took in on those forty trucks, you know. So I mean, as I said, we're a small dealer, but the amount of trucks that are sold in New York state, I couldn't imagine how much sales tax that actually is for the state that they're not going to receive. But as far as the state of Vermont, I hope we could delay it for a little bit to at least get the, trucks to go a longer distance, the battery technology improve, and get some kind of an infrastructure out there so that there are charging ports throughout the state that these guys could go to. [Speaker 5 ]: Yeah. I'll add, you know, the private industry thrives on efficiency. Right? And and and being able to, you know, grow and pay our people. Manufacturers for years have been like, there's, they're way ahead of where we're at looking at the different technologies to drive efficiency for our customers. And that's, that's kind of our, our edge over the competition. Like David mentioned, if you can save two miles per gallon, that's massive savings for a company. So, you know, these OEMs continue to drive and find ways more efficient. On the electric side of things, you know, it really depends on how the technology evolves, what the infrastructure does. And I think it's it's, you know, there's there's a few things that can really be done and that's, you know, get the old trucks off the road. You know, if you wanna really make a a quick impact, incentivize people to retire old equipment and and replace that with newer, cleaner technology. And the other thing is have a more focused approach on where does EV fit today? What, you know, the the certain pockets of the market, the final miles, the the transit buses, just different pockets where, you know, that technology really works and makes sense and you can drive a good value proposition there, that's where you're gonna succeed. [Chair Matt Walker]: I think that, that is interesting. I I could just keep look to one particular rep and real quickly about, replace your ride for trucks. [Speaker 5 ]: I don't know. [Chair Matt Walker]: That sound interesting. As we get close to having to wrap it up, I'm sure there's a few more questions. If in Vermont, like, what I think I heard about was Massachusetts in particular, if the municipalities are not customers of electric trucks, that really scares me in terms of without that support, how else are we gonna move forward to get them out there quickly? If that I would have thought that that was a key customer base to help move implementation along. And maybe I'm misunderstanding that, but without them helping drive the activity forward to help the dealers and the OEMs compliance and to help get it out in the field so that there's experience and success without the municipalities buying anything, how how do I mean, what else what else I would see to me would be a key market area that would have been expected to be on board first, and they're not. That's that's a real problem, a real major challenge, I guess. That's what I'm I'm probably most taking out of what I'm hearing. So or on on the parts I've heard. Are we gonna be in that same situation here? One municipality comes through and the dealership is moves on in business. And if it doesn't, one Ben and Jerry's comes through or whatever. But if Massachusetts put a sales rep on it full time and they couldn't get one municipality to move on in a dealership that big, what are we gonna do here? That's, I guess, my question to the witnesses as we get the now we're hitting up against our sort of our timeline. I'm not sure if anybody wants to sum up. I'm sorry. We we get one more question, and then we can sum up one or two. I think you had your represent Burke, represent Wells. You guys got maybe one or two minutes left, and that's [Representative Mollie Burke]: We have a minute. I just wanted to say if we had a national policy that would drive innovation and I mean, if, you know, if in an ideal world, that's what would happen. We have a national policy around this. We'd be money to install chargers. The innovation would be happening because of the mandates and, you know, that's just talking in the ideal world. [Representative Ken Wells]: Represent Will. Brent, how would these electric cars do on the racetrack? [Matt Preston]: Sweet dreams. [Brent Dragon]: I probably would have been out of racing long before this. Not very good with electric, I guess. [Chair Matt Walker]: Is there anybody in your group, Will, or Matt, that would like to sum up at all? Otherwise, we're [Matt Preston]: I'd like to say just briefly that when the legislature passed the Global Water Solutions Act in September of twenty twenty, it included in there the mandate to the Climate Action Council that it wanted to be cost effective, technologically feasible, and equitable. And what this industry is here telling you is that these rules do not do that, and that's what we call your attention to is an area that the legislature could look at to determine if these rules should be paused for our, like, finalize. [Chair Matt Walker]: Okay. Anybody on? [Matt Coda]: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much, chair Walker, members of this committee. I really do appreciate you willing to ask questions and and listen to some of our estimate. We I would love to live in an ideal world too, but this is the real world. And we live in a state which is imposing mandates, which will harm local people, local businesses, and drive drive this out of state. And that's that's a problem. That's a problem That's a problem for all of us. [Chair Matt Walker]: Thank you very much for joining us and giving us as much time as you as you did this morning. Thanks for traveling to be here to do it. First of all, members, thank you very much. We are adjourned. Thank you. Until tomorrow Thank you. Afternoon.

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