SmartTranscript of House Government Operations-2025-01-21-2:20PM

[Chair ]: Alright, folks. House government operations and military affairs, Tuesday afternoon, January twenty first. We're gonna start taking testimony on your app language provided by the council to help clarify some municipal elections operations, something that was brought to our attention, creating some procedural hiccups for certain municipalities. So we are gonna start things off today by talking to some of the stakeholders within legal cities and towns, clerks, but I think I actually wanna start with the secretary of state's office. So should we do do you do you wanna do the log through first? Okay. Yeah. Let's do that. [Representative Hiznull ]: I think that's good while we have talked with peers. [Chair ]: Yeah. You're on the phone, aren't you? [Tucker Anderson ]: Always. Never all. Right? Quiet in my mind. Never happens. We think about legislation all day. [Chair ]: You and me both, my friend. [Tucker Anderson ]: Good afternoon, Tucker Anderson, legislative counsel. You should have in front of you and posted on the committee's web page, a draft committee bill that is marked twenty five dash zero six six eight. I did ask if they could change it to the number of the beast. They said no. Mhmm. So, you have draft one point two as the most recent version. There were some updates to the initially proposed section two and draft one point one that I put together, during lunch this afternoon. For context and background about the particular statute that we are going to be working in. This is the statute that governs the use of the Australian ballot system, that is the secret ballot system, poll system for local elections. And specifically, we're going to be looking at subsection b within seventeen BSA, section twenty six eighty. It governs the use of Australian ballot for the election of officers in those local elections. Jumping into the language of the bill in section one, section one amends that seventeen BSA section twenty six eighty in subsection b to clarify that the Australian ballot system can be used for the election of any or all officers. And that any or all is really the fix that you will hear about, I'm assuming, in later testimony. The issue with the current language in this subsection is that it is not clear whether a municipality could vote to apply the Australian ballot system to some of its officers, but not all. And I believe what you may hear from some of the witnesses later is that there is a consensus view that, in fact, this is an all or nothing statute currently. And that in practice, there are municipalities that are not compliant with that all or nothing standard in subsection b. So moving through subsection b, states that once a municipality votes to elect any or all officers by the I'll call it a b system, the officer shall be elected in a manner in that manner until the municipality votes to can discontinue the use of the Australian ballot system. New language. A vote on whether to use the system to elect officer Shelby in substantially the following form. There are two options that the municipality can use. Moving into subdivision one on line eighteen, they can ask shall the town elect its clerk by Australian ballot? They'll insert the specific name, title of the office to be elected there. Two, shall the town elect all municipal officers by Australian ballot? So what's happening in the section, you're allowing any or all some of the officers to be elected by Australian ballot and for the rest of, for example, an annual meeting to be conducted by floor proceedings, and then providing the language that will be used for future, municipality to use the Australian ballot system for any and all oral. Excuse me. I have to be careful of my conjunctions. Section two. Section two is session law that is going to waive the legislative wand to say first in subsection a that any failure to comply with the prior provisions of seventeen VSA section twenty six eighty sub b, or the failure to comply with this act by the time annual meeting dates come around in twenty twenty five, it will all be okay that there will not be any challenge to these elections based on this act and the new procedure that's being set out or the prior provisions of twenty six eighty b. And in subsection b, it is looking back retrospectively and saying that any municipality that held a vote and approved the use of the Australian ballot system for some of its officers is okay. And further that any election that was held for those officers, looking back retrospectively, all the way back is also okay. So diving into the words on the page. And subsection a states that this act shall not render invalid the election of any municipal officer at a twenty twenty five annual municipal meeting. Further, that the failure of the municipality to comply with the procedures required by this act, so for example, using those two specific questions that are set out now in section one or the prior provisions of subsection b shall not be the basis for any action related to the election of a municipal officer at a municipality's annual meeting in twenty twenty five. So you can't sue to contest the election of an officer based specifically on this act or the prior language of twenty six eighty b for purposes of this year's elections. Subsection b, the validity of a vote by a municipality to elect some, but not all, municipal officers prior to the effective date of this act, so retrospectively, shall not be subject to challenge for failure to comply with this act or the prior provisions of subsection b. And in any municipality that voted to elect some but not all municipal officers prior to the effective date of this act, The election of a municipal officer shall not be subject to challenge or failure to comply with this act or the prior provisions of subsection b. Assent the committee, in addition to this language, an example from nineteen eighty one act two thirty nine from the adjudicated session. And I don't have it in front of me, but I think it was section forty one. You'll know it's probably posted on the website. But the language that is used here is substantially similar to that session law language from nineteen eighty one, which was packaged with amendments to seventeen VSA twenty six eighty and did the same thing. Looked back, waved to the legislative wand, and said, since we're changing procedures in this section, we're going to absolve any failure to comply with these procedures and say that those elections can't be challenged on the basis of this act. This act is set to take effect on passage. That's section three. [Representative Hiznull ]: Thank you. Thank you for that [Chair ]: and thank you for the quick work getting this language to us in the amended language. Any questions for Tucker from the committee? [Representative Hiznull ]: Alright. Mister representative Robert Burlington? [Tucker Anderson ]: How are [Chair ]: you, sir? Please. [Josh Hanford ]: Does this have any impact on any non annual meeting type elections or filling vacancies midterm, anything like that? [Tucker Anderson ]: I'm not certain. And I would say that this statute applies to the use of the Australian ballot system for the election of officers, and I am not I am only aware of issues related to upcoming annual meetings in the election of officers. Mhmm. Not sure about anything else. [Chair ]: Representative Hiznull. [Representative Hiznull ]: Thank you. Are we asking all municipalities put question one or two on the twenty twenty five annual meeting ballot? [Tucker Anderson ]: Yep. Those questions are the questions that will be used in the future for any municipality that is voting to adopt the Australian ballot system. Okay. What once? What twice? [Chair ]: You're off the hook. Thank you, counsel. Mhmm. And now for the secretary of state's office. Okay. How are you doing, deputy secretary? [Representative Hiznull ]: How are you? [Chair ]: Fabulous. Thank you. Good to see you again. [Lauren Hibbert ]: Good to see you. For the record, Lauren Hibbert, deputy secretary of state, thank you so much for having us in today and for fast tracking this legislation and particular gratitude to your legislative counsel, who has worked a magical legislative wand with Section B. So very much appreciated. This language came to our attention to the LCT's attention to the MCTA's attention and certainly to Towne's attention, because we had been previously, as much counsel referred to, we've been previously providing guidance that this section of the law, twenty six eighty, was an all or nothing provision, meaning towns had to vote to do all of their officers by Australian ballot or all of their officers from the floor. And if towns wanted to do some officers by Australian ballot and some officers on the floor, that was okay as long as it was in the charter. But we have a lot of towns that do not have a charter that have been utilizing this mixed methodology of voting, meaning we have towns that had taken a vote fifty years ago to allow for mixed methodology voting of some officers by floor, some officers by Australian ballot and have been proceeding under that methodology for the duration of time. But our guidance had was in contradiction. So, this group of people is in agreement on several things. One, that towns should be allowed to use mixed methodology voting, that towns know best what what position should be voted on from the floor and which position should be voted on by Australian ballot. And two, that we do not want to require towns to go through the charter process to codify that, for the duration of time. So we, fully support the Secretary of State's office, this clarification of the law. And I'll just say that, the way that this is drafted mimics, the remainder of the statute, which, covers budget questions and public questions. So the the way that, the towns have to offer the question is exactly the same. So we appreciate that consistency. And we also appreciate this draft because it has a prospective solution for towns protecting the methodology of voting and a retrospective protection for towns. And we think that provides a lot of clarity and surety to towns as of preparing for their annual meeting. [Chair ]: Okay. So this was originally flagged by folks in Hyde Park. Correct? [Lauren Hibbert ]: Yes. It it was a question that came to our office and I believe to be LCT, from Hyde Park. And then there was a subsequent news article, public records request to our office. And then it came to light that there were actually a lot of towns in a similar situation. Yeah. [Representative Hiznull ]: Do you [Chair ]: know how many towns plus minus? [Lauren Hibbert ]: What I can say based on our research is that about forty eight percent of towns use mixed methodology voting, but many of them also have a charter. So once we knew that it was a problem for more than one or two, we decided to not pursue like the analysis of how many, but just that they needed to be a solution. So, we could dig into that for the committee if you want, but it, it's clear that this is an issue that's facing a lot of times. [Chair ]: Understood. Anybody else have any questions for Debbie's? [Lauren Hibbert ]: Thank you. [Chair ]: Thank you for your time. And I guess, I've got the LCD team. [Josh Hanford ]: Director, Josh Hanford, director of intergovernmental relations at the Vermont League of Cities and Towns. First time appointed committee this year. I think Samantha was here last week. [Samantha Sheehan ]: Samantha Sheehan, municipal policy and advocacy specialist also with the Vermont League of Cities and Towns, and thanks for having me back so soon. [Josh Hanford ]: And we won't take a ton of time. We're in complete agreement with what the secretary secretary of state said, with the solution that your general counsel has provided, and hope that this can move forward. And thank you for taking such quick action. There are more than two, I know that, that have directly reached out to me that are in this situation and have been doing the way that was described for many decades. So I I think the the solution is quite a a good fix to sort of move people into doing it properly and not disrupt what people have done in the past. And and one thing we will add and, Samantha, jumping here, some of these positions that are maybe sort of less popular, they get elected on the floor, might not be filled if there wasn't a chance to have floor votes and discussions. You know, someone didn't run someone didn't fill out a petition, put their name in. It's not even on the ballot, because no one would come forward to run for that position unless there was a discussion at at town meeting to sort of encourage some folks to take on some of these roles. Any more to add there? [Chair ]: So with the this language being pretty fresh and new, have your folks, your legal teams been able to, like, take a look at it, digest it, they're content with the words on the page right now? Absolutely. [Samantha Sheehan ]: Yeah. We shared it with them not that long ago and heard back a few minutes ago that they support the language. [Chair ]: Okay. Questions from the table? [Representative Hiznull ]: As I said last week, when it this came out on our unit at the town clerk's unit at it from Hyde Park. There were so calluses were there were several towns. They're like, oh my gosh. We've been doing it wrong. And town clerks freaking out thinking that they've broken the law. [Chair ]: My first point of contact with this was actually from Rick Mahali with the callus concerns. So that was the first email I got on this. So yeah. Yeah. And I actually we looked at the language today as well because he he was really on top of this. So alright. We are looking to move this very quickly. So I just wanted to make sure that even with the new language, everything is clear on your end. Should we take action on this? Because as long as everything goes smoothly today, I think we're gonna vote this as soon as we get the bill in here. [Samantha Sheehan ]: Excellent. We support it, and we really appreciate the swift action and response. I think successive hearing calendars is maybe a record in my career. [Lauren Hibbert ]: So we [Samantha Sheehan ]: really appreciate it. Really appreciate the, action that you're taking here. It'll help our membership have a much happier time meeting day. [Chair ]: And that's the reason is one of my goals. [Tucker Anderson ]: For the [Representative Hiznull ]: speed at which this is moving. [Chair ]: Well, we will thank you very much. Yeah. [Representative Hiznull ]: Thank you. [20 seconds of silence] [Chair ]: Mister Arsenal, how are you? [Tim Arsenault ]: Very good, mister chairman. Thank you very much for your time and the committee's time. Again, my name is Tim Arsenault. I am the town clerk of Vernon and the current cochair of the legislative committee for the Vermont Municipal Clerk Treasurer's Association. We are extremely happy and gratified with the solution that has been put together by legislative council, the Vermont League of Cities and Towns, and the deputy secretary of state. This makes a lot of people among our membership a lot happier at a time of the year when we're all stressed out over meeting deadlines and things. So thank you very much in advance for whatever you can do. [Chair ]: Okay. So I I assume with that enthusiasm, you folks have had chance to digest the language and are content with it? [Tim Arsenault ]: Yes. It's a very simple fix, and the leadership for association and members of our legislative committee had a chance to look at this and it looks fine. [Chair ]: Anything from the table? Is this really this easy? [Representative Hiznull ]: It's all this easy. Right. [Chair ]: Well, I appreciate you being available. We wanted to check-in with you as a representative of your organization just to make sure that all the words were in the right place. So unless you have anything else to share with us. [Tim Arsenault ]: Just our gratitude, mister chairman. [Chair ]: Thank you very much. I appreciate that. Thank you for the work that you do too. Alright, committee. We are gonna be getting this originally, the conversation was to do this as a committee bill for sake of the calendar. It appears that it's gonna be introduced with the bill number. So as soon as it comes in, I think we're gonna carve out a couple of minutes to just kinda make sure we're still discontent with it and voted out. I did meet with senator Calamore this morning and let him know that this thing was coming to him as quickly as possible. So they are waiting for it over in the senate, and, hopefully, we can get this thing on the books in time to make town meeting days smooth. So and unless there's anything else from folks, I think that might be an afternoon. Good. [Representative Hiznull ]: Nope. Alright. Hey. Hey. That was [Chair ]: a quick hit for GovOps today.

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SmartTranscript of House Government Operations-2025-01-21-2:20PM

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