SmartTranscript of House General - 2025-01-24 - 10:30AM

[Mary Howard ]: Yes. Hold on. Self delegate. [Mark Mahales ]: I'm in. Actually, Thank you very much. Welcome, everybody, to the house, housing and general committee, the other one thousand. And today is Friday, January twenty fourth. January is slipping by. We're having this morning, we're going to have two panels, if you will. One the first one is Jen O'Farrell and director of the Northeast Kingdom Community Action. And then we'll have Casey Winterson, director of community based services of Northeast Kingdom Community Action. So I think the first thing we'll do is introduce ourselves, Ashley, to [Jenna O'Fayo ]: the witnesses. Great. I guess I will start. I'm Ashley Bartley. I serve the county in Fairfax in Georgia. [Leonora Dodge ]: Good morning. My name is Leonora Dodge. I serve, Essex Town and the city of Essex Junction. Let's see. [Mark Mahales ]: Joe Parsons, Newbury, Thompson, and Graft. Hi. Tom Trellkin, Athens, Bradford, Chester, and Linden. Debbie Dolkin. I represent St. Johnsbury, Concord, and Kirby. Thank you. [Gail Penzo ]: Good morning. Gail Penzo. I represent Chittendoon twenty, Holchester. [Mary Howard ]: I'm representative Mary Howard, and I represent Rutland City District six. Good morning. I'm Elizabeth Burrows, and I represent Windsor one, which is Heartland, West Windsor Windsor. [Emily Pazow ]: Hello. Emily Pazow, South Burlington, Chittenden nine. [Mark Mahales ]: Hi. I'm Mark Mahales, and I represent Kalis playing fields on Marshfield. And welcome. Please state your name for the record and take it away. [Jenna O'Fayo ]: My name is Jenna O'Fayo, and I live at St. Johnsbury. And I'm here today to talk about Vermont Community Action Partnership before we talk in detail more about advertising. I want to thank representative Howard for your words this morning to describe the work that we do. Sometimes it's harder for us to describe the work that we do because we do a lot of different I don't know how much if if you know about community action. So we have five community action agencies in Vermont that cover the entire state of Vermont. Every county in the United States is also covered by community action. So we're part of a national organization, and we were funded in nineteen sixty four through Johnson's War on Poverty and have been funded since. So your five community action agencies are part of the national network. So we received something called the community service block grant. That's a federally funded block grant. That's the core of our agencies that make us that that allow us to be a community action agency. Another interesting thing about community action, it really started as a grassroots kind of folksy program of the sixties. Right? Like, it started with the senior head start was founded, and the cool goal is to move people out of poverty. And I think it existed for a lot of underneath the radar. And I think in time, I was with the new executive director [Mary Howard ]: of Brock. [Jenna O'Fayo ]: And you could totally correct me if I'm wrong, but I think in the community action world that was before us, people got wind that Barack Obama was going to mention community action. And people were very, very excited because Anurag isn't a president who really talked about community action. And when he did talk about community action, he talked about defunding it because we didn't have standards and structures. Well, that changed. And to let you know, your community action agencies report on national performance indicators now that are consolidated into a state report. And we do have a, I think that you've received copies of our annual report. But we have a state report, and then we report separately too. So all of our data and the work that we do and the and the communities and the people that we serve, we have some pretty high high, indicators that we need to meet. [Mark Mahales ]: Could you tell us who what is the agency that administers through which the block grants come? [Jenna O'Fayo ]: The opposite economic opportunity. Which Which is under which? Agency of Human Services. [Mark Mahales ]: Thank you. [Jenna O'Fayo ]: And that block grant is a very, very small amount of money. It's so every community, also saying in the community action agency world, if you've seen one community action agency, you've seen one community action agency. So even though we receive the same core funding, a lot of how we build out our services reflect the communities that we serve. So what CVOEO might have in Chittenden is different than what we might offer in Essex County. Right? Because our populations and our communities are different. We have services that are the same, and our services throughout the state are the LIHEAP program. Right? We all administer crisis fuel. And we have a micro business development program. We have financial coaching. We we and we are housing provider. So we do a a bunch of different services. I don't see what's behind me. So there's your map, and you can see what district you're in and what agency serves your area. And we're pretty much divided by counties. Yes. The micro business development program. How many individuals [Mark Mahales ]: you consider a micro business? [Jenna O'Fayo ]: Five. Okay. Perfect. I just wanted to confirm. Five or less. I was going with the less. [Mark Mahales ]: Okay. [Jenna O'Fayo ]: Perfect. Thank you. So you can stay on that area. Yeah. The screen. But all the programs that we do have and the Vermonters that we serve. I thought that's gonna say much more than Yeah. It was I was just kind of, like, telling you about community action before Casey gets into the details around housing. I don't know if you have any more questions about the agencies and and what we do, but we are, poised to take on new projects, and we are really the boots on on the ground. Like, represent Howard said that carries the work to people in our communities. [Mark Mahales ]: You don't administer LIHEAP, do you? We do. You do administer LIHEAP? Yes. [Jenna O'Fayo ]: Yeah. We we're in food pantries. We do homeless shelters. We are head start providers. We are parent child centers. We are community justice centers. Rent assistance. We do rental assistance. We do lots of lots of programs. And if you hit the link on our website, you can see by Community Action Agency what we do, but we're here to serve our communities. So Head Start is not its own program anymore? Head Start is its own programs. Yes. But Head Start and community action are are very tied together. And so for us in the northeast kingdom, we have eight Head Start programs. And in Bennington, Brooklyn, for Brock, you're not you don't do Head Start. Right? It's [Tom Donahue ]: most of the RepoMed Health. [Jenna O'Fayo ]: Yeah. Right. So there's different providers of Head Start. And that's what makes community action really unique. We do lots of different things, but our similarities come. All the programs that we do do get reported in the same data. And they meet those high, national performance indicator standards. Now we just have to report on we get monitored every year. We have governance boards that are, unique in structure. They are triparte boards. That means a third of our board are elected official or their designee, a third are community members at large, and a third are people with lived experience that are currently low income who are maybe utilizing our services at community action. And our boards represent all the counties that we serve as well. It it's a very unique structure. [Mark Mahales ]: How big is the average board? [Jenna O'Fayo ]: Well, it depends on I don't know. I think fights whatever their bylaws. So our board at NECA has eleven people because we have three in those categories for each county. They have the balance, and then we have two folks who don't want to leave our board, but they're non voting members. And you have twelve. Yes. Oh, each of us have bylaws that we follow-up as well. [Mary Howard ]: Please. For full disclosure, I am a board member of Brock, and so I'm well aware of all the amazing services that these partners all play. I have referred constituents to Brock several times, and they have contacted me afterwards and said thank you so much for for doing that because they helped me so much with whatever issue they're they're concerned about. So thank you all for what you do. [Gail Penzo ]: Please go ahead, Gail. I'm curious as far as is there a metric for how many staff members that you have for each entity? The only reason I ask is because I've worked with CVOEO, and they seem stretch Uh-huh. Staff wise. [Jenna O'Fayo ]: I think we're staffed every agency is probably staffed to what our budget can allow. I think, at NECCO, we have one hundred [Mary Howard ]: and sixty employees. Okay. And I'm sorry. Sixty? [Jenna O'Fayo ]: We have one hundred and sixty employees at Northeast Kingdom Community Action. And at Brock, I [Leonora Dodge ]: don't know if you [Tom Donahue ]: Sixty two. [Jenna O'Fayo ]: Sixty two. Let's say we're precise very differently because our budgets are all different. Right. We have the base funding and then all the other programs fill out. Can the rest sorry. Can we have Brock say his name for the record companies and things idle. [Mark Mahales ]: I have the peanut gallery back here, but I'm I'm Tom Donahue. [Tom Donahue ]: I'm the chief executive officer for Brock Community Action, which is Raleigh County and Benoit County. [Mark Mahales ]: Yeah. That's good. Since you're speaking, it's good. [Jenna O'Fayo ]: Thank you, Brooke. Sorry. The other thing about the Community Action that makes us unique as a statewide provider is that we are conveners. We work with partners in all other areas. We're health care partners. We partner with our our designated agencies, our housing other housing authority, that we're bringing people together. And because we really take a a human centered approach to our work, and we know that there's not one thing that's gonna, really make family better off that we really wanna wrap around families and help bring services together. [Mark Mahales ]: Is the [Jenna O'Fayo ]: grant is a very small fee. So we at NECA have a thirteen million dollar budget. Our block grant is six hundred thousand dollars. So But that very small block grant designates us a community access. [Mark Mahales ]: Of the could you give examples of the other sources of income? [Jenna O'Fayo ]: So at NECA, fifty percent of our budget is head start funds, then parent child centers, housing opportunity program, community justice [Mark Mahales ]: Biden. [Jenna O'Fayo ]: Hawaii. [Mark Mahales ]: Okay. So it's a There's [Jenna O'Fayo ]: an exit. And we're a hundred percent grant funded. [Mark Mahales ]: CLC price. [Jenna O'Fayo ]: Yeah. Great. Alright. Questions. Thank you very much. Is there any other questions about community action so I can pick Casey up? Talk about housing? Thank you. Thank you. [Mark Mahales ]: Thank you. Thanks. Good morning. Morning. Could you say your name for the record? Yes. Of course. [Casey Winterson ]: My name is Casey Winterson from Burke, and I work [Mark Mahales ]: at North Thank you. At. [Casey Winterson ]: I'm the director of economic and community based services. So I oversee a lot of our, community action programs. I'm very excited to be here. Housing is near and dear to my heart, so I'm very excited to to help you all about what we do at CommunityAct and and, where see the future go. Alright. So I'm gonna start off with some just generalized numbers of where housing is right now in the state of Vermont. I think it's a helpful picture to be painted just so that we're all kinda on the same playing field. I'm sure most of you know a lot of these numbers, but we are fourth in the nation for the highest rate per capita of homelessness. And that is the most recent that is most recent, December the end of December of twenty twenty four. So those numbers are quite new. And then in twenty twenty four, the point in time count, we do a snapshot of time for account of homelessness, sheltered and unsheltered last year in twenty twenty first or twenty fourth. There was third thirty four well, three thousand four hundred and fifty individuals. Of that, there was children, families, and veterans, and folks over the age of fifty five. Three is what it's Can I ask [Jenna O'Fayo ]: you a quick question? Of course. Why was there a no unsheltered count in twenty twenty one? I'm assuming it has to do with the pandemic, but we [Mary Howard ]: know that there were individuals who had [Casey Winterson ]: a sheltered count. So it had to do with the pandemic. What we did as a result of not having an unsheltered count is just counted the number of individuals that were sheltered through the general assistance program. Okay. Thank you. That's what the blue line is there. So all of that is to say, that we're here to the for the opportunity to ensure that people everywhere in the Vermont in the state of Vermont have access to the shelter and the support that they need and a path to a place of their own. And the ability to do that allows us to ensure that our communities are thriving and having folks being the best that they can be living in the spaces and the communities that they wanna be in. So we're coming here today to talk specifically about fourteen point five five million dollar housing opportunities grant to the BCAP members for the fiscal year twenty twenty six. And I think that's an increase of four point seven five million dollars. That will go directly, and I'll talk more about what that will go directly to. But that will go directly keeping folks house, rapidly rehousing them when they do become homeless, and, the utilization of financial assistance, which are direct dollar payouts to landlords, for getting folks into housing, or having them keep their housing. We're also looking to sustain, the one point two seven five million in the fiscal year twenty six, but base budget for the holistic case management, that's being supported by the previously, for those previously being supported by the emergency rental assistance program, ERAP for short. Mhmm. And then we are also here to support our colleagues from the HHF, the homeless homelessness alliance and their their ask and further priorities this year as well because together, we work hand in hand. HJDB oversees a lot of statewide level things that the kid specific housing providers that are holding on housing opportunity parents are doing. So we're all meeting on a regular basis. We meet at least two times a month for multiple hours each, to talk about priorities, at the for everybody that's here today. CVOEO holds their own they're part of the the, Chitling Chittenden, and then we're the rest of us are the balance of state. So the balance of state is all the community action needs is except for Chittenden or except for CVOEO's Burlington office. And then their Grand Isle in up north one are part of the balance of state as well. So we're here asking that you support this, in passing it to the house appropriations, for the twenty sixth budget. We're also here today a little bit. Well, we're in a couple of different committees. So one of the committees we are in is around our finance abilities program, which I know is not necessarily a focus in of jurisdiction for this committee. But I'm gonna talk about it a little bit because I think it rounds up the whole program that we specifically asked him to work. Jenna did a great job starting us off with the programs that we do offer, like lead financial coaching, transportation programs. We do VITA tax assistance. And then we have a lot of the the basis of the case management work that we're doing, whether that be case management through financial coaching or through housing our housing prevention programs. And ultimately, the goal of our housing prevention is to stop the homelessness report even happens. And before folks fall into the cycle, it is often too hard to get out of, which is homelessness. So that is essentially the focus of where I'll be today and what I'll be talking about. And as I started off, I showed you these numbers. Our holistic approach at at DCAP is really helping people emerge, helping people stem these challenges before they even happen. Our goal ultimately is to retain the housing, and sometimes that is we are are unable to do that for whatever reason it may be. But ultimately, that goal is our tried and true number one is to assist folks, whether that be through case management, financial assistance, going out and doing boots on the groundwork with the liaison with our with our, landlord liaisons to get folks [Mark Mahales ]: from even becoming a house. Please. [Mary Howard ]: Does your case management include is your case management limited to getting somebody into housing and so everything leading up to that, or does it include maintenance after [Casey Winterson ]: Yeah. Great question. Thank you. I so it depends on the time frame specifically. So in some cases, we'd be looking at we typically will do a thirty, sixty, ninety day check-in with the individuals. And during that entire time, we are providing, we have they have access to case management and case services. There are other programs in which individuals will be able to stay on with the case management for multiple years. One of those would be through a multitude of programs, department supportive housing programs. But one in particular that always rises to the top of my mind is the family supportive housing program. So FSH for short. Those individuals will get access to a case manager while they are unhoused, and they will last throughout the process of the FSH program up to two years. As long as that individual is engaging and is continuing working on the plans that they their housing goal plans that they they have set for themselves. [Mary Howard ]: What happens if they don't continue to be engaged? So Are you that concerning to the case? I mean, if they if they stop being engaged, then is there a way to pursue them coming back into the fold? Or [Casey Winterson ]: Yeah. So it's not once they, like, stop it. They don't show up. We just let them go. It's a very progressive work that we're doing that is constantly checking and continuing to reach out to them. Oftentimes, some of the reasons that we might see a family drop off, is they become secure enough that they've got all the things that they need and they can't support anymore and they'll back out. Other times, maybe not so lucky and there may be some challenges that are happening. At which point, family family supportive housing is a really great example of being able to wrap around other services that aren't just the housing case management services. So that might be pulling in family services, through a parent child center, getting them access to, the doctors and the dentists that they may not have had at the start, mental health case management. So it really is a holistic wraparound program. And if someone was to disengage, we our case managers are very well versed and very relationship based to be able to continue that interaction to try to bring them back into the fold. Or sometimes, for whatever reason, it doesn't happen, but [Mark Mahales ]: it is not for a lack of time. Is your financial assistance up to three months, is there a criteria that are applied to decide who to help? [Casey Winterson ]: Yeah. Of course. So our financial assistance has two different pieces of the program. There is the rental arrears, which is three months of back rent. And then there is the first, last, and security deposit three months going forward to get somebody rehoused. In order to qualify for that, you do have to be, at risk of homelessness, which is a federal definition from from HUD, or you have to be actually one homeless, which is, again, a federal definition from HUD. That is all done through the process of coordinated entry, which is funded by the state and the federal government. And coordinated entry is the place that we are gathering all of the information of the individuals that are possibly going to become homeless or are home or are indeed street homeless. That is where the process starts. At that point, they are picked up through navigation services, which I can talk put it up behind me, but very briefly about it's a it's a array of services that allows us to hold on to that individual at varying levels. So for coordinated entry, for instance, we're able to hold on to these it's a lighter touch navigation program where we're interacting with those individuals over time, to try to get them off and coordinate that. It lets them into securing housing. But once they are part of the housing retention, which is typically our rentals, it's the the background. In both cases, actually, they're getting they're getting a case manager that's with them all the time. They're on a designated caseload. But to answer your question more directly, the the number one piece is sustainability. So in order to fund the dollars, the family, the household has to show that they'll be sustainable and making rent payments going forward. And that's a big piece of our puzzle. And in my opinion, makes us good stewards of the dollars that we've been given to do this work so that we're not just handing out three months of background to a family that we know ultimately is not gonna make it. So those are would say is our typical kind of process and procedures to getting folks the dollars. What's, [Mark Mahales ]: for example, your budget for financial assistance? So in the at any k? Yeah. [Casey Winterson ]: So NECA, this past this this fiscal year, was a hundred thousand dollars, and we went through that hundred thousand dollars in under six months. We luckily, there's some room in the state level budget that we've been able to get additional dollars. We're at, I believe, one sixty eight currently. And we will overspend that as well by the end of the fiscal year. It's pretty significant, and that's being seen across the state. That's not any case specific. CDOEO in Burlington, I believe, has a two million dollar budget, and so that's the high end, and then it ranges from from there. [Mark Mahales ]: That's a [Jenna O'Fayo ]: good question. [Leonora Dodge ]: So I'm just I I wanna make sure I didn't miss so the the total fiscal year twenty six request is the fifteen million eight. [Casey Winterson ]: Yes. [Leonora Dodge ]: And then the other figures that are in here, you're sort of subdividing kind of where that money is being asked to, you know, to dedicate it. [Mary Howard ]: Yep. [Leonora Dodge ]: Okay? And then [Casey Winterson ]: speak to that eventually. [Emily Pazow ]: Okay. Sorry. Did I skip [Leonora Dodge ]: did I skip that? [Jonah Richard ]: You're totally fine. [Leonora Dodge ]: I heard money, and then [Mary Howard ]: I started looking for the money in [Leonora Dodge ]: here. Yeah. Just generally, I I I I just have to say that we have had both at schools I worked at and and in my district. I've referred a lot of people to in our area, CVOEO, And it has saved people from imminent homelessness or, you know, like if they lost their place. It's enabled people to get childcare so that they can keep jobs. It's tied them into, you know, food assistance and, you know, to it's it's been amazing. It's a really fantastic agency. And I think the only issue I've seen is the home vouchers for the families have gone unused in some cases because you can't find a home to pay someone to live there. [Mark Mahales ]: Yeah. [Leonora Dodge ]: So even if the money's available, how often is that happening statewide? [Casey Winterson ]: I don't know the numbers for the statewide. I would be happy to reach back out with [Leonora Dodge ]: some folks. A sense of, like, is money does it ever go unused? [Casey Winterson ]: Or does kingdom, I can tell you that everybody that is on a home voucher currently is housed through our home through that program. I think it's probably very specific to the area knowing Burlington. It's I believe Burlington has a rate of, like, ninety nine percent rental. So but we I'd be happy to reach back out with numbers I can talk with our colleagues at CVOEO who run the program. [Leonora Dodge ]: Well, I guess, specifically, I'm trying to just figure out whether you can whether you guys have the flexibility. Like, when you because I've seen how you're subdivided, like, this would be you know, part of this fifty mill is directed to this and this. Are is there flexibility, or do you need any latest legislative help to allow for that, or do you have that freedom to redirect unused funds within because you guys have just so many needs. [Casey Winterson ]: Right. Yeah. So the specific so I'll jump ahead to this. Just so the fifteen point eight is the total request of that. It's the increases for set four point seven five. And so of that four point seven five, the the two point four that goes to the home voucher would be continuing that process across the state and and giving more vouchers to the places that need it. So I think thinking I'm gonna answer your question with my answer. But if CVOEO, for instance, doesn't have the ability to rent that particular unit or they're noticing that they're having there's a lapse between the time that they've given the voucher to the time that they're actually leased up, there is flexibility within MAS to send some of those vectors to other parts of the state so that individuals could lease up in that space [Leonora Dodge ]: Okay. [Casey Winterson ]: So that it's not going unused. [Gail Penzo ]: Right. [Casey Winterson ]: And I I think that what we see and what we like to support, obviously, is for folks to stay in place in their own community. So that is another challenge that we see on our side is, hey. We've got some space in the northeast kingdom. They're like, I'm in Burlington. I've got everything five minutes away from me. No. Thank you. And they will con they'll continue to wait, and they'll continue to have access to the voucher. We'll work with them to extend the voucher. But, yes, the process of being able to move into and interstate the those vouchers is possible. [Gail Penzo ]: Okay. Gail, did you have a question? With the ERAP program, it's not a one shot deal. If they were to receive the three months, it's back rent. They have to show that that rent, they will be able to pay moving forward. Mhmm. [Mary Howard ]: If in six or seven months' time, [Gail Penzo ]: it was some kind of issue where they felt they had again, would they be eligible? [Casey Winterson ]: So it it they would be depending on the amount of money that was paid the first time. So I can't remember the number off the top of my head again. I would be happy to report back that number, but there is the HOP program allows for individuals to come with multiple requests. It just can't go over certain threshold. I don't even wanna try to guess because I'm probably I have a number in my head, but I'm not a hundred percent sure. But they would be able to come back. The emergency rental assistance program, I also wanna just clarify, is separate from this. So emergency rental assistance program, the the dollars that are being asked for is actually just to maintain case management of case managers that are already currently in the state that if this money is unable to be put into the base budget, will require agencies to think about laying off those individuals without having fund without having the funding behind them to support them. And I don't remember the number. It's anywhere in the ballpark of, like, twelve plus case managers statewide that would be that would go unfunded as a result. The rental assistance that I'm talking about is. So that's the rental assistance going three months back as well as three months forward, or three payments. Three months backwards of background or up to three payments of basically three months rent first last security deposit. And then the home family voucher program is the voucher is paying for seventy percent of the rent. The individual is responsible for thirty percent of their rent. And that that program in and of itself also has dollars to do rental assistance to help assist in [Mark Mahales ]: the move in process. Thanks. Yes. Of course. We've got just a few minutes. So you're not gonna [Casey Winterson ]: Nope. Yeah. Overall, again, thank you so much for letting us be here today. The financial capability is just a quick reflection on the work that we're doing, micro business, private tax, financial coaching. All of these programs support the greater whole of, like, individuals that are experiencing, the threat of homelessness or our homeless have the ability to work with these individuals specifically around, like, financial coaching to be able to work with them and coach them into better processes to reduce their debts, find those places on the monthly charges that they may not need. But overall, the parting words that I'll leave with today is that we as a state are able to further these services and the supports that people can count on on the most important crisis times of their life. Housing prevention and retention services really is the most affordable way to move that process forward. It is the most person centered way. We wrap around case management services. We provide the financial assistance. We do the thirty, sixty, ninety check ins after the fact after those dollars go out, and they're getting that person one on one rather than going through a program that they may not have that that confidence. Very thankful for your time, and I know that we can do this all together. And Thank you. On that one. Alright. [Gail Penzo ]: Thank you. [Mark Mahales ]: Thank you. And we have We [Mary Howard ]: do have two numbers of records. [Mark Mahales ]: Right. [Mary Howard ]: Where are we Immediately, if [Mark Mahales ]: we need right into our next step, and then we'll stop. For the. Are [Mary Howard ]: we still having committed to seven? Yeah. I think it's okay. So we're gonna go, like, eleven to twelve right now? [Mark Mahales ]: Well, we'll see how the for a second. So, Jodra, can you hear? [Jonah Richard ]: I can hear you. Can you hear me? [Mark Mahales ]: Yeah. Thank you very much for coming. I think I'll have to ask the committee to to introduce itself. [Emily Pazow ]: Emily Krasnow, South Burlington, Chitinah nine. [Mary Howard ]: Saudi Lamar from Little Washington District, Morristown, Elmore, Worcester, Woodbury, and a small part of South. Hi. I'm Elizabeth Burrows. I represent Windsor one, which is Heartland, West Windsor, and Windsor. Good morning. I'm Mary Howard, and I represent Rutland City District six. Morning. I'm Gail Peso. I represent Chittenden twenty, Old Chester. I'm Debbie Dolgen, and I represent St. Johnsbury, Concord, and Kirby. [Tom Donahue ]: Hi. I'm Tom Charlton, Athens, Grafton, Chester, and Wyndham. Hey, Jonah. Joe Parsons, Frotten Thompson, Newberry. [Jonah Richard ]: Oh, familiar face. [Mary Howard ]: That's right. [Leonora Dodge ]: Leonora Dodge from Essex Town, City of Essex Junction. [Jenna O'Fayo ]: Ashley Bartley, Franklin Watt. [Mark Mahales ]: And I'm Mark Mahali, and I represent Dallas Plainfield and Marshfield. So welcome, Jonah. Tell us your name, what you do, and take it away. [Jonah Richard ]: Okay. Thanks, and nice to meet you all virtually. My name is Jonah Richard. I, I'm down in Fairleigh. I I own and operate two businesses here. One's a real estate development company, focused on small scale housing and and infill commercial projects, primarily in Fairley and Bradford. And the other business is a general contracting and and home building business. So between the two, we employ sixteen people here locally. So we we predominantly focus on multi small multifamily housing, projects, within our village centers. And we've been doing this, primarily since, twenty twenty. So for the past, four years, we've developed, north of thirty units completed, with another sixty in our pipeline here. And that's mostly, again, apartments and some, commercial projects such as like, we did a a conversion of a a vacant gas station into a a retail space last year. We also built a a nine unit mixed use project here in Fairly that is home to a coffee shop and and six eight apartments. We do some, for sale. We're we're trying to get into the for sale, housing just because I think, we have some obligation to give homeownership options to to local residents. But to date, it's been mostly rental apartments. So I'd like to bring up three things. I I also have a a blog on on Substack that I I tend to vent when I find there are issues with the development process at the state level or or local level. And that helps me. One, it's it's cathartic, but it it actually people read it surprisingly. So it helps spark conversations locally and and at the state level. So there's a couple a couple new things I'd like to surface for this year, and and this group will be the first to to kinda hear it from my mouth. So the first the first one is generally access to funding. I mean, that's a prob you probably hear this quite a bit. And I would say eighty percent of the work that we do, the development work that we do has some sort of subsidy component to it, whether it's state programs like VHIP, you know, incentives through Efficiency Vermont, or we've started bringing in federal funds. So there is some ARPA funding that we got for a project. VHCB has, HOME funding. There's the LITAX, the the Low Income Housing Tax Credits, which is a federal program. There's all these all these different programs that that we kinda draw from, to support our projects just because, you know, if if you're in Burlington or another major area, you you can probably develop market rate housing without subsidy, which is a mixture of, private equity plus commercial debt. But in rural Vermont, the numbers don't pencil out. Your construction costs are just as high, if not higher, than in metro areas and your rents per square foot are lower. So there's this huge gap that tends to happen between, you know, being able to service your debt, make payments on utilities, taxes, insurance, versus what you actually get in for for rent. And so that's why we rely really heavily on on grant funds. So in addition to, like, the general comment that I you know, we we need more access to funding, I think the state's been generally doing a great job about that. There is a fairly large chunk of money that VHCB controls in their in their general fund that is kept for nonprofit developers. And I think this would be a could be a really good source to open up to for profit developers. And as we've shown on our side over the past couple years with our projects, the cost per square foot and cost per unit that we're able to deliver our projects at is well below what the nonprofits have been able to to achieve for a number of reasons that don't need to get into right now. But we are extremely cost competitive and I I think most for profit developers would be if and so it's it's an effective use of tax dollars, I I think, to have that pot of money be open to kind of the general public. The second the second topic that I I wanna bring up is around low income housing tax credits. And for those of you that aren't familiar with this program, it's one of the largest incentives for affordable housing development in the country. And and traditionally, it's there's there are thresholds on the number of units that makes it financially possible to syndicate the project and get your tax credit equity investor. And so usually, that's north of twenty, twenty five units. We're tackling our first low income housing tax credit project now. We're in the process. We just submitted our application last month for a scattered site twenty unit project, which is highly unconventional, especially for a first time poor profit developer. But we have a lot of great support, and we were able to get our application in and the state seems receptive, to our proposal. However, there are guidelines that VHFA issues called the Qualified Allocation Plan, the QAP, which kinda dictates the rules, for applications and for developers interested in applying for, WiTEC credits. And as of twenty twenty five, they issued a new rule that would make it a lot harder for small scale newer small scale developers to get access to these funds. Thankfully, and the restriction is you have to have already developed or worked on a development that has been funded through through the LIHTC program, which is kind of a catch twenty two if if you're someone like myself who operates at a very small scale that doesn't have a traditional development background. And, you know, if if that is the case then that would cut off this funding for potentially a large number of rural communities. I mean, we have never and fairly had a low income tax project developed. We have a non profit that that, you know, kind of oversees our area, but Fairly is too small of an area for it to make sense. They have enough work that they can do in White River Junction or, you know, the larger areas. Fairly is a town of a thousand people. And there's a lot of communities across the state that I feel get overlooked by, the traditional nonprofit setup that perhaps community members could potentially, like myself, take the initiative and tackle some of these developments if they had access to the right funding. So if we're talking about trying to incentivize small scale development, I think we need to make it easier for small scale developers to access the same funding that the larger players have. And then Let's just [Mark Mahales ]: let me what a question for you that's really interesting is aside from the example you just gave of this new BHC VHFA regulation, are there other ways that you would recommend changing regulations or laws to make it easier for small scale developers to access financing? At this point, I don't wanna put you on the spot, but if you had anything in mind, here we are. [Jonah Richard ]: Yeah. I I I just I think your question ties into the third area that I wanted to talk about is which is tax liability, income tax liability. A year ago, we we we received effect received effectively a million dollar grant for a housing project in Bradford. It's affordable housing project in perpetuity. It was funded through a couple federal and state sources. And the project was a was a huge success. And we we stayed we finished construction this fall last fall, and and the units were occupied as of, like, September or October. However, what end up happening is on a million dollar in grant funds, I ended up getting hit with an income tax bill of half a million dollars. It was taxed at the highest tax rate, and we're not able to write any of that off. And so this is largely an IRS issue, but there's also a huge state tax liability that is associated with this. And a lot of smaller developers that are taking VHIP funds or other funding sources through ACCD are now get facing the same issues that I am, perhaps at a smaller scale. This almost put me out of business. This is like you you you're given a a million dollars and you spend it all on developing an affordable housing project, which the project, by the way, is not worth a million dollars. Affordable housing projects are so subsidized and so expensive that the value at the end of the project is not what you actually pay for them. So not only did we spend the entire million dollars in the project, I then had to figure out a way to cough up a half a million dollars to pay income tax. And that's a huge problem for a lot of developers. I mean, that was never part of my capital stack. It's never part of any you know, that that increases your development cost by fifty percent just just to that. And I don't think it's malicious. I think this is, like, some sort of oversight, and I haven't I've spent tens of thousands of dollars over the past over six months on attorneys and accountants trying to figure out a solution for this. We haven't come up with anything solid yet beyond trying to change the way this is taxed at the state and and and federal level. But it seems like it's it's not malicious, but it's just an oversight of the tax code because I don't think anybody would logically expect, hey. For every dollar that we give you that you're gonna spend on your projects to build, you're gonna have to pay us back fifty cents of that. And I don't care where you get it. You just gotta pay it back. But that's but that's not a qualified expense on the development side. So all of a sudden, you know, we what we ended up doing is having to refinance. And I had to take out a half million dollar loan to pay back, you know, all this debt or all this this tax liability. And and that's not that's not sustainable. That's not a type I I couldn't do that project again. Then, you know, I you you lose money on that on that type of project. [Mark Mahales ]: I what I think is interesting about this is this kind of a detail is really important. And I imagine a conversation that I have with the chair of our wage and needs committee, and I they're the tax committee. And I realized I don't know enough yet to have a coherent conversation. Is there any way you forward to the committee a little more detail, like, perhaps, I don't know, an opinion or something from your tax lawyer or something like that? Just you could, Joe, you're maybe you guys connect with each other. [Tom Donahue ]: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. You could simply [Mark Mahales ]: I just I think forwarding to Joe enough so that that he can give it to our committee assistant, and we can take it from there. I just don't think on the basis of this general description, I don't know about. Would you be willing to do that? [Jonah Richard ]: Absolutely. Yeah. I I can write up as much I'll I'll I'll work with Joe and [Mark Mahales ]: Work with Joe and and, then Joe Kent. Is that alright with the committee if we sort of delve into this a little bit, Leonor? [Leonora Dodge ]: Yeah. And I'd love to hear, like, from VHFA's perspective [Mark Mahales ]: Why they [Leonora Dodge ]: Are they obligated in some way to to set up this new rule? Is it [Mary Howard ]: the prior rule you mentioned? [Leonora Dodge ]: Yeah. Yeah. The yeah. [Mary Howard ]: I think both of those the the LIHFA that. Yeah. [Speaker 9 ]: I just a quick question for you. Is it because you're a for profit develop if would you have been hit with that if you were a nonprofit? [Mark Mahales ]: Nope. Yeah. I know it's because you're a for profit, but I don't know exactly how it works. So we need a little more. [Jonah Richard ]: Thank you. And there are ways to structure there are what I've since learned is there are ways you can kind of structure these grants, perhaps as loans upfront, and avoid this. But there's still, you know, there's still repayment obligations, so they don't technically it's not technically a grant, but you can avoid the the income tax that way. But, you know, a lot of this is, like, there's not it's not very it's not very transparent. And a lot of the small scale developers don't have access to attorneys and accountants that deal with this on a day to day basis. I mean, the the accountant that I have now to help solve this issue, I pay eight hundred dollars an hour. That's like that's a that's a lot of money that to to just educate yourself on the ins and outs of this complex issue. And so Business. I think there needs to be yeah. Some more more [Leonora Dodge ]: Just given given our committee chair a new lease on life and [Mark Mahales ]: Go Go [Emily Pazow ]: Novogradic. Over the retirement. [Mark Mahales ]: You know, you had a question? [Gail Penzo ]: Well, before you had said that nonprofit costs more money, then is that true still with what you said with what it wound up costing you in the long run? Because it cost you a million five. [Jonah Richard ]: No. No. My project and, and, you know, you add half a million dollars to a million dollar budget and you you will exceed any sort of nonprofit budget. That that was but that's, you know, that's an exception. Without that half million dollar bill, we would have come in a far lower. [Mark Mahales ]: K. Yes. Go ahead. John, [Tom Donahue ]: I wanna thank you for speaking specifically to small builders and smaller rural communities. Could you and I know as a small business owner, I hate to ask more of you because you've got other things to do. Could you provide a concise set of bullet points that speak to the other issues that are barriers to small rural developers? It would be very helpful. Yes. Which I believe so. [Jonah Richard ]: Yep. These are the three I had right now prepared, but I'm I have a whole list I'm sure I could come up with and send over to you. [Mark Mahales ]: That would be great. Thank you very much. And what you've been in correspondence with our committee assistants to set up your appearance here, and they are the people that you can email stuff to, and they'll distribute it to us. And this is a concern we have, but we don't know enough. And, you know, your tech your oral testimony is kind of teeing it up, but something written will help. [Jonah Richard ]: Perfect. I'll get that over to you this weekend. [Mark Mahales ]: Okay. Go ahead. Wait. Mary. [Mary Howard ]: Thank you for your testimony. I would like to know how you were able to turn a gas station into a retail, business because, in Redland City, we have a gas station, at the corner of Route four and Route seven that has been vacant for years and years and years. [Tom Donahue ]: Yes. [Mary Howard ]: I But [Jonah Richard ]: it all processed. It took two and a half years. The first year and a half were environmental due diligence, and then Right. We had about nine months of construction. [Mary Howard ]: Also, I have in my district a a home that was owned by a a senior woman who passed, and it got vandalized. And it has been burned out, windows broken, boarded up for at least eight years. And for eight years, I've been trying to get that building down. It's now got a tax sale, and the new owner has until November to take it down. But this has been an unbelievable deterrent to the neighbors. The neighbors sent in pictures, wrote letters, did all of that. And here we are still waiting for that building to be taken down. So I commend you for turning gas station into a retail spot. [Jonah Richard ]: A solution to that that I've heard of some towns taking, this is more on the local level, is that you impose a tax on derelict properties, an added tax. And, you know, the I think Corinth does this. And then for every month that you keep it looking derelict, you pay a penalty. And that has seemed to incentivize owners to either sell or or tackle the renovations themselves. [Mary Howard ]: I believe that because this was a tax sale, the new owner has two years to do something with the property, and the two years will be up in November. So yeah. Thank you. [Mark Mahales ]: So we've interrupted your testimony of questions. Do you have further testimony you'd like? [Jonah Richard ]: That's what I had to say, but happy to answer questions and, of course, provide additional written [Mark Mahales ]: One of the things I I I don't know if you can quantify. We've heard repeatedly that it costs approximately, I'm just putting it approximate, half a million dollars a unit to produce a unit regardless of the form. And that's all in. That means land, driveway, land improvements, septic, etcetera, whatever. And I'm wondering what would what would your number be if you could generalize? [Jonah Richard ]: If I if I didn't have any restrictions and didn't have to go through all the hoops of the LIHTC program or federal funds, two hundred and fifty to three hundred thousand a unit. [Mark Mahales ]: Why do you think do you have any thoughts about why the difference? [Jonah Richard ]: So, yeah, it's been very eye opening going through our first LIHTC project. I mean, we spent you know, we had to you have to do all sorts of environmental additional environmental due diligence. We have to bring in a a cons we have to have a hire a specific LIHTC consultant to advise What's the [Mark Mahales ]: for the committee? LIHTC is what? [Jonah Richard ]: Low Income Housing Tax Credit. [Casey Winterson ]: Right. Okay. [Jonah Richard ]: So, you know, we paid twenty thousand dollars to a New York archaeological firm to come up and dig some holes and tell us that there's no, you know, there are no concerns on the soil. Like, that's not something I would normally do for a for a housing project, especially when we're only building where existing buildings are today. You know, a light tech consultant is fifty thousand dollars. We have to pay Cohn Resnick, a national accounting firm, another fifty thousand dollars to prepare all the documents and do all the compliance. We have DRM, you know, one of the biggest attorney law firms in the state, another thirty five, dollars forty thousand to help prepare our documents. Like, there's just a lot of added oversight because it's federal dollars and requirements that you wouldn't have with a normal market rate project. [Mark Mahales ]: It's the when you spend two hundred and fifty to three hundred thousand a unit, I'm curious that all in for you. Yeah. I mean, if it's not if you're not doing a tax credit deal. And is the I understand. And my own experience has with the local project has been we did a tax credit deal, and it was brain damage. And I spent an entire day at DRM signing documents. But but it did provide additional money that we needed. So it's a source of funding and and and it just drives up the project costs. Do you think are the units you've is energy efficiency have anything to do with it? Do you or do you find that you already have We hit [Jonah Richard ]: we hit energy efficiency standards. We go above and beyond no matter what for our projects. That's you know, we do all electric. We have heat pumps. We have more insulation than code requires. So the the project where I am right now is the nine unit mixed use project that we completed in twenty twenty three. That was a hundred and eighty thousand per unit, and we hit passive house. I don't know if you if any of you are familiar with passive house standards, but you have these air leakage standards and exterior insulation and interior insulation and triple pane windows and we did all that for a hundred and eighty thousand a unit, All in, including land, including everything. Septic. Thank [Leonora Dodge ]: you. So the other question that I had was, do you have to install your multiunit dwelling sprinklers and set up elevators and have accessibility? [Jonah Richard ]: Yeah. Some of them. You know, if it's three stories, then we gotta we sprinkle it. And if it's three stories and big enough, we have to put an elevator in. [Leonora Dodge ]: And those are all standardized. Is that, like, a decision you can make? Do you have flexibility to make that decision that determination that you're gonna put those things in? [Jonah Richard ]: That's determined by building code. [Leonora Dodge ]: The building code. Okay. [Jonah Richard ]: I suppose you could. You know, with a smaller project, you could just voluntarily say we wanna add an elevator. But elevators are two hundred and two hundred two hundred fifty thousand dollars just to put one in. So if you have a three unit building and that elevator is just servicing the top floor unit, that's gonna be really expensive. [Mark Mahales ]: Right. [Tom Donahue ]: I'm wondering, Jonah, if the the additional overhead expenses that you were just talking about, the different consultants and hoops that you need to jump through, I'm wondering to what degree they scale depending on the size of the project. In other words, if somebody were to go into a rural community and do what they want, fifty units, is that the maximum? And if if they've got That's Yeah. They're gonna do something enormous. Say they were gonna go in and do some a project that was five to ten times the size of yours, they wouldn't necessarily be paying five to ten times the same amount of overhead, would it? Your the percentage the percentage that you're paying in all of this administrative overhead is much higher than a larger developer's would be. Am I correct? [Jonah Richard ]: I'm not sure because, you know, the the complexity scales it's not one to one, but the complexity does scale. The reason developers like larger projects is because from the developer side, the headache doesn't scale one to one. It's it's this roughly the same amount of headache to do a twenty unit project as it would from be for me to do a fifty unit project. But I think your soft costs are still gonna still gonna kinda scale a little bit faster than, like, the developer the work on the developer side. So I think I think the incentive is more like I as a developer could make more money for the same amount of work if I did larger projects. [Mark Mahales ]: You know, I my own experience, I I was, chair of an effort to create to rehabilitate, the East Calais. And it cost us two point eight million dollars to rehabilitate this. We're building and three units. And I think a great deal of the cost was because of historic preservation, which we'll hear about, and because of, the tax credit program, which I experienced even as an attorney as brain damage. And I think, frankly, a lot of what Jonah mentioned is not scalable. That is what he pays down to Rackham and Martin, what his accounting firm, what he pays, environmental people to you know, it's well, maybe the environmental, but a lot of it isn't scalable. It's just intrinsic to the cost of doing a tax credit deal. So why do people do them? Well, you get money. So our project, if we hadn't had historic preservation, if we hadn't had tax credits, probably would have been a lot cheaper than two point eight million, but we wouldn't have had the whatever it is, we wouldn't have gotten the money. Because that's why you're kinda forced into it. Exactly. Cumbersome, and he's right. It's the IRS. I mean, they're they're just have really made extremely cumbersome. You have to create a whole subsidiary if you're a nonprofit. And you I mean, it's just yeah. It's hard. Are there other questions of no. Jonah. Jonah, this has been so helpful. I'm really glad you took the time. I think we appreciate that you got lots to do. So thank you for doing it. I do think that forwarding material to the committee via the the the email that you've got to set this up and also providing material to Joe would be I mean, they'll do the same, will be very helpful and help us nail down that down. And we'll pursue issues like your VHCP question. And I would like to pursue the price differential a little more with other witnesses, etcetera. So thank you. Any last? Well, thanks a lot. [Jonah Richard ]: Alright. Thank you, folks. Have a good weekend. [Mark Mahales ]: Thank you, dear. How [Mary Howard ]: many units was that million dollar? [Speaker 9 ]: It was six. [Casey Winterson ]: Six. It was a large [Leonora Dodge ]: Six in a coffee shop. [Mary Howard ]: Or is it a different Oh, there's a [Speaker 9 ]: coffee shop with Eight units. [Mark Mahales ]: Eight units. Something like that. [Gail Penzo ]: Six of coffee shop and what? [Speaker 9 ]: It's a million dollar project. Which was, like, it's out. [Casey Winterson ]: It got turned into [Mark Mahales ]: I know. I It had [Speaker 9 ]: been turned into, like, two [Jenna O'Fayo ]: It's And then [Speaker 9 ]: I had this big, huge old barn attached to it. They basically just got it started over, and I think terminated [Mark Mahales ]: six so Yeah. I think it's we'll talk later. These We have have committee. We're having we have time for a little committee discussion. So please go ahead. [Speaker 9 ]: Yeah. So I think it was six. I think that I believe that was the number. [Mark Mahales ]: My thought is well, first of all, I think having a small scale developer in here was really interesting. I I heard people weren't born actually. It wasn't. [Gail Penzo ]: Yeah. Thanks. [Mark Mahales ]: Thank you, by the way, Joe, for Yeah. Getting a little he's obviously talking. [Speaker 9 ]: Yeah. He's a smart guy. [Casey Winterson ]: He's a great work in the area. [Mark Mahales ]: And I think I think it's up to us to nail down some of this because other committees are not gone. You know, we're we're the ones who are hearing this testimony. We're the ones who wanna think about small scale developers as well as large scale developers. And if we're thinking about small scale developers, it's up to us to develop the program. You know, we'll get we will review the proposal of the governor. We will look at all of this. But I just have a feeling that getting to the level of granularity that we really are gonna have to get to to make a difference is gonna be up to us. And that we're the ones who wanna put are gonna end up putting in a bill. I don't think anybody else is gonna do it. It. Yes, Jill. [Gail Penzo ]: Why would nonprofit cost more money than [Mark Mahales ]: a private developer? That's something I think that we should ask some nonprofit developers. And one of them happens to be appearing before us at one o'clock. And we can ask Kent. He's also sitting in the area. [Jenna O'Fayo ]: Yeah. Yeah. [Mark Mahales ]: But I think and I think but we should I think, we can make we can do one of two things. We can always bring someone in. Like, we can bring in the HFA back in. But I think we can also make inquiries. You know, in other words, I can or somebody, I'll ask one of you to do it, can just inquire of the HFA. What about this? And we'll talk about that. But I think I might ask one of you to to do that. And so or two of you to nail [Mary Howard ]: on this. [Gail Penzo ]: Would it be besides VHFA? BHFN. [Mark Mahales ]: Well, they were the ones I just mentioned them because he had a very specific complaint about a new BHFA rule [Tom Donahue ]: Mhmm. [Mark Mahales ]: Which was the one that said you can't avail yourself tax credits if you haven't done a tax credit deal already. Mhmm. And which, by the way, I haven't done one. I and we stand. You've mic. But he's right. And then it's our people. [Tom Donahue ]: So you have to find somebody who wants to do [Mark Mahales ]: it twice. [Emily Pazow ]: Right. Right, Heidi. It's hard. [Mark Mahales ]: No one in my right mind would wanna do it twice. [Emily Pazow ]: Right. Right. [Mark Mahales ]: But, anyway, that I'm sure there are others, but that's why I asked him to provide a list. Elizabeth, Theo, are you just waving your hand? Hey, Anthony. [Mary Howard ]: Of this. It [Speaker 9 ]: would be interesting to see how much money internally within VHCB kinda gets locked up for a profit out [Mark Mahales ]: of the pool. Yeah. That's [Speaker 9 ]: So I know there's I [Casey Winterson ]: know there's a split, like so it's seventy to thirty or something [Speaker 9 ]: like that for conservation to housing. [Mark Mahales ]: Why don't they make one money available for for profits is the question. Yeah. Yeah. Particularly since he develops Jonah seems to develop he develops units that are perpetually aborted. So it's not just as a preview, next week so first of all, thank you everybody for your input. I did write the letter to and and you all have it, the letter that we sent to appropriations, which I hope reflected exactly what you wanted, Joe. I do do. I mean that's your good. And and although I'll accept comments offline, I have no idea what they're gonna do. Several people have thanked us to me for being on time and clear. Well and also ranking, which is something, by the way, we'll have to do with the budget, which is harder. But, of course, the reason we do it is if we don't do it, then they have to do it, and they don't do it without our input. So it's better if we rank. [Emily Pazow ]: I also had someone from Appropriations make a note about how wonderful it was to have it so clear inside and not the kitchen sink. [Mark Mahales ]: Also, despite my best efforts, but very typically for me, I had a typo in the letter. The typo, rather than simply being something that would be caught by spell check, was that I said b h c b when I should have said b h a, which is, shall we say, insignificant. It was caught by representative Bloomly, and we have reformulated the letter and sent it back, and you have the reformulated letter. [Emily Pazow ]: Yeah. [Mark Mahales ]: The [Mary Howard ]: one that's not a number, so that that could be bad. [Mark Mahales ]: I I can do that. That's But we're on Tuesday, we we've we are firming up the calendar, but we have not firmed it up. Tuesday morning, we will be with our attorneys and our, committee assistant. They're trying to get the week firmed up. Anyway, it's at, when did we get eight thirty? Or Tuesdays Yeah. Eight thirty. So we're here at eight thirty. Oh, Wednesday. Yeah. On Tuesdays always. [Leonora Dodge ]: Okay. Great. [Mark Mahales ]: And we're at the moment, we're also meeting when Thursdays at nine. And, anyway, there's no these are not private meetings. We're just trying to figure out where, you know, what are we gonna where are we gonna slot people in. If there are people that you think that should testify Thursdays are eight thirty too. Thirty. [Emily Pazow ]: Are they eight thirty? Yes. [Mark Mahales ]: Okay. Alright. If if there are people you think we should testify, like, you provided us, this guy, Debbie's you're you provided us somebody. You know, let us know. My feeling is that if a member of this committee has some ideas for people to testify, we're gonna hear them. So That's right. So what we're gonna do on Tuesday, we're having we're we're gonna have a little more work on landlord tenant. And then I think we've kind of covered that, and we just are gonna have to decide what we're gonna do, if anything. And Tom Proctor, who is homeless [Emily Pazow ]: No. He's friends and his rights and democracy. Justice. [Mark Mahales ]: Yes. And Angela Zukowski, who represents the Vermont Landlords Association Great. Is coming in and also a kingdom landlord named I've forgotten his first name, but his last name happens to be Dolan. [Emily Pazow ]: It's a more favorable favorable. Relation. Yeah. [Mark Mahales ]: He's going to testify. And that that's what we're doing on Tuesday. Yourself. Yes. Go ahead. [Emily Pazow ]: So, also, like, as we're working on that, obviously, we don't have a bill in front of us for that topic. However, I have a hunch that there as we continue to see bills come in, that there will be bills. So it's kind of like a preemptive introductory to this topic so so that if when and when we do get bills, whether it from here or from the senate, then then it'll be easier to dive in, to that topic. [Mark Mahales ]: And we our choice, particularly for the newer ones of you, but our choice here is, let's say we really wanted to let's say that we were crazy enough that we really wanted to tackle landlord tenant. Like, I know we we have the great, you know, compromise, etcetera. One is to take a bill that has come to us that someone else has introduced and sort of amended and add to it, and the other is to put it in our committee bill. So those are our options. And we're getting to where we we have a few more topics, but our introductory work is kinda done, and we'll be hearing bills and diving in. We are going to look at the Human Rights Commission again. The Human Rights Commission executive director will be testifying. I think I've I'm gonna ask our prior chair to come in on that bill. And we're gonna look at h fifty seven, which is a bill that I think you were involved in Because we have now seven bills on the wall, so we're gonna begin to start to do bills. On Thursday, there are two before I get to that, there are two or three subject areas that I feel like we need to delve into a little bit. One is mobile home. Great. That would really have to get, I think, a little more into that. And another noncontroversial simple issue is short term rentals. [Emily Pazow ]: Yeah. And there will be I know that folks will have bills coming [Mary Howard ]: our way out of those. [Mark Mahales ]: On that. And then at the moment on Thursday, and I'm not sure it will be Thursday, but I think it will. We will have a joint hearing with, the senate and receive the details, the bill proposed by the governor, the housing bill proposed by the governor. And so and I think that very soon, that bill will become available generally. And when it does, we will have it sent to all of you. It's I happen to know in Domino's account, but then it's eighty some pages long. So Oh, great. [Emily Pazow ]: Some nighttime reading. [Mark Mahales ]: I think about weekends. Yeah. [Emily Pazow ]: Yeah. Right. [Mark Mahales ]: So, anyway, that's my report. Anything else? [Emily Pazow ]: No. I I think that's great. And I really appreciate I think it's so valuable. We have so many folks from all over the state in this committee from most counties and just having those voices continue to come from our communities is so helpful. So I'd like, you I encourage people to I have a few ideas of folks too, but I think it's great. Thanks again, Joe, for recommendation. Sounds good. And then, yeah, things will once we get some more bills and things will start to really shoot out. [Mark Mahales ]: So our next testimony today will be at one o'clock. Chris Donnelly, director of community relations for Champlain Housing Trust, is gonna come back. I've asked him to get a to give us a reprise and another run at perpetual affordability And another look at all the different housing programs and how they deal with, you know, perpetual affordability or they don't or that kind of thing just to give us a better idea. And then, of course, we can ask them anything we want. And then we're doing it for the day for people to Okay. Get out of here, hopefully, around two ish or something like that. How's that? Great. I'm just trying Yeah. That's a little one. I know you're all of a sudden. Read stuff. [Casey Winterson ]: Right. I [Emily Pazow ]: just can't wait to stay long. Like, I'll be here till five. Alright. So one other thing is I wanna let everyone know that my favorite lunches today in the cafeteria. It's the Thanksgiving dinner one. If anyone else [Casey Winterson ]: is interested, it's [Jenna O'Fayo ]: Sorry. You said that. [Mark Mahales ]: I think it's safe to take a [Mary Howard ]: I hope I hope

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