SmartTranscript of House Energy and Digital Infrastructure 2025-02-21 1:00pm

[Richard Bailey]: Yeah. We got a little good. So the one that we [Bram Kleppner]: are on, [Richard Bailey]: it doesn't leak when we turn it upside down. [Laura Sibilia]: Alright. Should we get the door? Yeah. [Christopher Howland]: I'll get it. [Kathleen James]: Thank you. Alrighty. Welcome to the House Energy and Digital Infrastructure Committee. It's Friday, February twenty one, and we are here with legislative council to talk about h one twenty five, an act relating to reporting on the energy transition. [Laura Sibilia]: So we'll go around the room [Kathleen James]: and introduce ourselves and then over to you. I'm representative Kathleen James from the Bennington Board District. Right. [Speaker 5 ]: Richard Bailey, [Christopher Howland]: Christopher Hallin, Maryland four. [Dara Torre]: Tara Torrey, Washington two. [Bram Kleppner]: Graham Buckner, tenth and thirteenth. [Laura Sibilia]: Laura Cenellium, and then we'll see. [Bram Kleppner]: Jack Walker, committee assistant. [Christopher Howland]: Thomas Weiss, resident of mock failure. [Kathleen James]: Thank you. [Matt Cota]: Matt Coater with Meadow Hill representing gasoline dealers with the Vermont Retail Broker's Association and heating fuel dealers to the fuel dealers associations. [Kathleen James]: Great. Thank you so much. And for the record, [Speaker 8 ]: Public safety, office of legislative council. [Kathleen James]: Great. So we are here to walk through page one twenty five. You wanna walk through it? To discuss it. [Speaker 8 ]: Sure. So, yeah, I think we're here for, yeah, discussion and markups. It's pretty short, Bill, but you've taken a lot of testimony since you last saw me. So on page one of h one twenty five as introduced, it's creating a new section in title thirty. And so that new section would be eight thousand and twelve, energy transition economic impact report. On a report January fifteenth of each year, the Department of Public Service, in consultation with the relevant state agencies, shall publish a report on the economic impacts of the clean energy transition in the state. So, madam chair, I haven't done a walk through with your committee yet. Do you want me to read through the whole thing, or do you want me to stop at the end of each section? [Kathleen James]: We are a question type committee. So why don't we [Speaker 8 ]: go section by section? So is the intro you charge you're charging the department to produce a report on the new the elements of that report are in the next subdivision. So [Kathleen James]: that's the first part. K. [Laura Sibilia]: So shall I suggest purpose language? [Richard Bailey]: Or do you [Laura Sibilia]: wanna go through the whole thing? [Kathleen James]: No. I I wanna proceed systematically. So if if we've got a thought a part that anybody has thought on or a question on, let's do it. I wanna let's go through in order. Okay? [Laura Sibilia]: So I have some language which I think the full committee has seen around purpose, and I think I've shared with you, Helen. I don't know if that's how we would state it. So Okay. We could do findings. Like, these are not findings. It's purpose will will [Speaker 8 ]: Yeah. I mean, I the ops and legislative council does generally dissuade such things. Yeah. But [Laura Sibilia]: I'm not sure if [Speaker 8 ]: it would be a in our fifth section or more of an intent section. I think if you would like to have a session law for are you thinking it would be session law, or do you think it would be in the statute itself? [Laura Sibilia]: I think it would I'm thinking it would be session law Okay. To help people understand why we're doing this. [Kathleen James]: Ellen. Doctors Can you explain to our new members session law versus statute? Sure. Just for a moment on that. [Speaker 8 ]: Sure. So what you're looking at in this bill, h one twenty five, is a change to the statute. So statute or statutory language is what is codified as law in the green books. You don't have any in here, but it's the Vermont statutes and updated, which are organized by title one through thirty three. They're organized by topics. And so the energy work is in title thirty of that, and that is durable lock that is exists until you change it. Session law is also has the force and effect of law, but it is usually of a temporary nature or a one time nature. And so it is not actually put in the books. And so it doesn't go into one of these specific statutes. It could be at the beginning of a bill, as a finding purpose or intent section. It also is where we usually put, one time money. That's a a single act that happened one time. So we don't put all of that in the books because that would take up reams of paper. Whereas the things that are supposed to be referred to over and over again are in the books. So so as far as, like, introductory language, like a finding section or purpose or intent, you can include those things at the start of a bill, to provide some context for the statutory work you're going to do in the rest of the bill. The office of legislative council does generally dissuade such things unless you have a specific reason you need to do so. For a couple of reasons, one, it can be clutter. But also, we reserve usually the ability to do these sort of intent or reason sort of sections in case the courts have a question and you know that that question is gonna come up. And so it can be the statement on behalf of the legislature of what you were intending to do, including some evidence if you were looking at including findings. But, generally, if you're just trying to explain why you want to do something, we dissuade you from we attempt to dissuade you from doing that because it can cut against you if the courts do look at it and that is it is found to be a legally unsound reason for doing something. So, it can work against you if it's not carefully crafted. But the house especially loves to include special law provisions, and so I can draft something for you if you think the intent is not clear. But, generally, we do advise that the text of the statute should stand on its own and could be fulfilling multiple different reasons when enacted. [Laura Sibilia]: So I would I think, doing that, like to work on massaging the purpose language a bit. But I do think actually that it is important to include a session of authorization for this reason, which is that we are referencing a number of data points that are already being collected. And so it would be good to explain why we're doing that. [Speaker 8 ]: Yeah. I think the and I I can get to the report. Yeah. [Laura Sibilia]: But Yeah. I yep. [Speaker 8 ]: And so I can include that in the next draft if you would like to. You also could add some additional language in subsection a if you'd like. [Kathleen James]: I'd rather see it there. [Speaker 8 ]: And I guess this is a bigger question that you all are about to discuss, but if you're lines fourteen through sixteen. Great. That's correct. And I think the question that you all are about to discuss potentially is, are you going to be asking for the department to do any additional analysis? And so if you have contacts you'd like to give them for their analysis, that might be a good place to put it. [Laura Sibilia]: In a? Yeah. Yes. Because I [Speaker 8 ]: think the language that you're referring to, you emailed to the committee, [Laura Sibilia]: and I don't know if you [Speaker 8 ]: would like me to read it in case that That's fine. Everyone. And you're referring to, a statement that says, requires the department to publish an annual report assessing Vermont's clean heat clean energy transition, identifying regional energy access gaps, tracking costs, and supporting workforce development. [Laura Sibilia]: That would be where I would end it Okay. At this point. Right. But it does go on. [Speaker 8 ]: And I think those those elements identifying gaps and tracking costs would be relevant context that the department would would appreciate, I think. You did go on to add two other sentences there to help policymakers support a fair and affordable transition as the global economy shifts away from fossil fuels and all of our managers are now experiencing the global energy transition in the same way. And so I would agree that those two those second two sentences are more of opinion. [Laura Sibilia]: Mhmm. [Speaker 8 ]: And so yeah. Unless you had some some citations you wanted to provide for those. Yep. But the first sentence does have elements that the the DPS might want to be able to reference. So [Kathleen James]: sounds like what you're recommending, Ellen, would be the first two sentences can just move to a as one a as more clarity for DPS in statute. And when then as we move more into sort of opinions, we can just Yes. K? [Laura Sibilia]: Yes. Sure. I'm not out. [Kathleen James]: Alrighty. So those would be some an edit to one a. Okay. I think yeah. Let's keep going because the report shall include is where we're really gonna get into it. I think. [Speaker 8 ]: Yep. So subsection b, page one, line seventeen. The report shall include the number of gas stations operating within the state and if there was any change in the prior year. [Kathleen James]: So Oh, [Speaker 8 ]: you wanna stop there? [Laura Sibilia]: Yep. Yeah. [Kathleen James]: So the number of gas stations operating within the state and if there was any change in the number in the prior year. And that comes from where? [Speaker 9 ]: Did you [Laura Sibilia]: hear from Ag? Not now. [Speaker 8 ]: So you got testimony that A and R has some of that data in regards to underground fuel underground storage tanks. And then you does DPS also already have some of that data with fuel price thing? No? I didn't sorry. Does the question is does it matter where it's coming from? Or are you asking if it doesn't exist? Well, I need such It matters to me [Kathleen James]: Okay. And I'll I'll explain why it matters, which is that if if we're gonna pull from the point to me is that is that we are going to pull from existing accessible available datasets. And for now anyway, because we talked about a one, two phase to this bill. If we if we pass it out that we might start with our first thing due this coming January fifteenth, and it's gonna be this, this, and that because we know that data exists, and it's easy to get. Here it is. And we could consider adding on a section about at the end about, you know, furthermore, agency of natural resources will work with other state agencies to, you know, by such and such a date, develop additional indicators they think would be important, talk about leading indicators. So I I'm sort of envisioning a very simple you know, by next January, we know, even if it's imperfect and not the deepest analysis, that we can get this, this, and that because it's out there. We can get it, and here you go. And then we'll ask A and R if we think that's helpful to also provide us a little report on here's how this report could be better. That's where I'm going [Laura Sibilia]: with this. One hundred percent. [Kathleen James]: Okay. So in my mind, if we're developing a list of available stuff and then we find out later that the data doesn't exist or we can't get it, then boo on us. So I I I am wanting to know where every one of these metrics comes from. [Richard Bailey]: Should we put it in into the billing, into the statute? Or [Laura Sibilia]: I don't know. Do we need to identify the source of the data so that we're clear about what we're ask that it's not something we're asking to be recreated. [Richard Bailey]: But you're suggesting putting it in the in the statute in this line [Kathleen James]: Ellen, if we have to [Laura Sibilia]: ask. Yeah. [Richard Bailey]: I'm asking if if that's what Laura was a terrible rep. So that he was. [Speaker 8 ]: So I don't necessarily think that you need to, particularly if, like, this this information potentially exists from in multiple places from A and Rs underground storage tank data and agency of ags data. So I don't I don't know if listing the agencies helps unless especially if they were to learn EIA also collects this data potentially. And so I don't know if you wanna limit them by saying you have to talk to one agency to get this data. Representative Hutton? [Bram Kleppner]: I would also suggest there's some risk in identifying the source and statute because it might change. For instance, Department of Ag responsible for making sure the meters on the gas pumps are operating properly, that responsibility could shift to a new department of weights and measures or something at some point in the future. [Richard Bailey]: Yeah. [Kathleen James]: I was just about to I I am not a big surprise me person, but mister Coda, can you help us with this? [Matt Cota]: Matt Coda. [Kathleen James]: And so I'm sorry. To be clear. Specifically, what I'm hoping that you can tell us about is so I I would like to know what data you can tell us is readily available on gas stations, fuel dealers, while understanding that the purpose of this bill is not to get into the clean heat registry and clean heat standard, and we're not going there with this. Understood. So but I think your insight could be really helpful here. So You bet. So you heard the whole thing. This [Matt Cota]: Bet Koda with Meadow Hill on behalf of the Vermont Retail Grocers Association and Motor Fuels Division. If I were to get the most comprehensive data on, gasoline stations in Vermont, you have to go to multiple sources, and then you have gotta merge those documents. So this is complicated, but this is important. Every single gas pump, diesel pump, has a meter on it, which is regulated by the agency of agriculture departments of ways and measures to make sure they're selling a gallon. Proven every year, if you look at a pump, you'll see a tag that says it was tested in August, tested in February. They have the location of every single pump that comes out, but that's a different dataset. [Laura Sibilia]: Wait. I wanna go back. [Kathleen James]: Can we can I stop on that for a minute? So every gas pump has a meter, and that meter is regulated, read by ag Department of weights. Weights and measures. And then and that's gas as in gas, you put your car? [Matt Cota]: Yes. So that those are those are fixed locations. Those are you you you see the tanks, the pumps that are that are attached to the ground. The tanks are collected by the Department of Environmental Conservation. They have to be registered division of the agency natural resources. But the tank owners Wait. They sorry. [Kathleen James]: I I'm literally writing this down. Sure. So so the tanks, they register the underground tanks, they register every year with A and R? [Matt Cota]: Yes. Department of Environmental Conservation, which is the [Kathleen James]: Okay. And then the [Bram Kleppner]: But they may be [Matt Cota]: dip the reason why I'm sorry. Not complicated. But they may be different than the pump owners, which may be different than the station owners. Tanks are are largely maintained by either a company that owns those underground storage tanks or in some case, what's called the jobber, which is the entity that brings the fuel in. This is a different dataset than the one collected by the Department of Motor Vehicles. So on the twenty fifth of the month, you you file your, gasoline and diesel taxes, excise taxes with the Department of Motor Vehicles. They post it. It's all publicly available. I can tell you how many gallons each individual jobber sold in January of twenty nineteen. It's all available. And you can see those gallons and those entities on the DMV website, and they have all the addresses. But that might be different than the actual owner of the store that supplies it. K. So, like, Bill and Jeff Parker on the Citgo out there, they own the store. They own the property, but they might have a different job or or supplier who owns the tanks and the pumps. K. And then the third one is the division of fire safety, department of Department of Public Safety, division of fire safety, they're required to collect on March first of every year any entity in the state of Vermont. It's a federal law. Yeah. It's called Community Right to Know Act. Anyone that has over ten thousand pounds of hazardous materials on-site This is to alert firefighters in case there is there's anything. Ten thousand pounds is of of gasoline is about fifteen hundred gallons, which is which is everybody. So then you have another universe of people that have gasoline, which we could include, like, municipal town garages. [Speaker 9 ]: Mhmm. [Matt Cota]: So those four different data points will not evenly overlap, but they will be instructive to find out the physical locations and the owners of those motor fuel distributors? [Kathleen James]: I got five. Sorry. I had AGS, weights, and measures for the pump gasoline pump meters. I had A and R DEC for underground tanks. I had the pump owners at DMV. I had the owner of the store. I don't know where we get that. And then I had department of public safety, division of fire safety. I so I got five. [Matt Cota]: Yeah. The owners of the stores, I I you probably get that from secateurs or or tax data or I don't know. But I don't know where we would [Richard Bailey]: get that. [Kathleen James]: Not the secretary of state. Okay. I I [Laura Sibilia]: I think we're overcomplicating this. And at least from my perspective of what I'm hoping to understand, which is the accessibility of gasoline to put in cars. Mhmm. And so that feels to me like weights and measures. And is there some other [Kathleen James]: The pump with the meter. [Laura Sibilia]: Bill, I have a question [Richard Bailey]: about this, though. So who pays the tags, the motor fuel tags? Is it the jobber as you're referring? So it's not the retail distributor station. It's the person who brings the fuel to the station. [Matt Cota]: Yeah. What's known as the jobber class and the distribution of motor fuels are is the entity that may own the store. [Richard Bailey]: Right. Right. But not necessarily. [Matt Cota]: But not necessarily. Think of, like, a Valley or a a Jolley. Right. They own stores. Right. But they also distribute to the stores that they don't own. [Richard Bailey]: Well, I [Matt Cota]: think they are ultimately responsible for paying the the excise tax. That's why if you look at the list in the DMV public website, you'll see so many few gasoline distributors Yep. Yep. Compared to the number of gallons they sell versus heating oil, propane, and the store. [Richard Bailey]: I I think what we're trying to get at, I think what the, you know, sponsor is trying to get at is [Laura Sibilia]: I I think [Christopher Howland]: Is that what we're trying to [Richard Bailey]: get at? How how many how many gallons is is the store selling? I guess that's weights and measures only. Right? Is that is that telling us the pump or or or or do they do they do we get that granular level of data from weights and measures? [Matt Cota]: Reps and cable. Weights and measures will only tell you where the pumps are and whether or not they're certified to to distribute. Gathering. They're not gathering gallons. [Richard Bailey]: Gallons are gathered by department of motor vehicles. And but only at the only at, basically, the wholesale level at the job level. Yeah. Yeah. [Laura Sibilia]: So, again, I think we're overcomplicating this. But, you know, if we're trying to understand where people can get gasoline in a geographic region Yeah. Yeah. In terms of weights and measures, that feels like I agree. You agree? Okay. Great. I agree too. I Let's be really simple with that then. [Speaker 9 ]: That this is why [Laura Sibilia]: I was suggesting we might consider being specific about data or not. I got the opposite of that. [Christopher Howland]: So just the word Yep. [Laura Sibilia]: At least Well, I mean, we have there's a whole I don't know. What we've learned is there's a whole bunch of data about gasoline that's out there. But in fact, in terms of what we're trying to accomplish here Yeah. There's really only one dataset. So some members of this committee, maybe all members of this committee are very concerned about sending people off doing things for no reason. And so if we wanna narrow [Christopher Howland]: what [Laura Sibilia]: we're trying to do, you know, I think being specific about the data that we're looking for, that might be helpful. And and also reducing the analysis that we're asking DPS [Kathleen James]: too. Yes. So the [Bram Kleppner]: ag weights and measures data, this is a big question, Will tell us how many pumps there are. Mhmm. Will or will not tell us their locations? [Laura Sibilia]: Not sure. Yeah. You know, we didn't ask Ag for testimony. I don't know if they have agreed to it. [Kathleen James]: Did we ask or did we did that policy note? Correct. We did. [Christopher Howland]: I saw it coming through. [Kathleen James]: Oh, great. [Bram Kleppner]: Yeah. They're confirmed, next Wednesday morning. Great. [Kathleen James]: So alrighty. So for me, that was useful. That was a useful drilling down because having everything we just heard, I, like you, am interested in where the pumps are from ag weights and measures and probably fuel tax data that we know we can get from tax. Okay. Item number two. Right? [Laura Sibilia]: Great. Let's pick up now. [Speaker 8 ]: Okay. On to page two. The number of heating fuel fellers operating in the state and if there was any change in the numbers in the prior year. [Laura Sibilia]: Right now, that data is collected imperfectly. Is that right? No. We have actually the number of fuel sellers from tax. They have the number of fuel sellers. Is that manager? Our impromptu witness on the sirens as his waiting to see if it's gonna be [Kathleen James]: I'm writing something down. Yes. Mister Coda. [Matt Cota]: Matt Coda, on behalf of the Mott Fielding Association of the Heating People Good. The tax department collects two cent fee weatherization tax and a one cent petroleum fee on everyone that sells heating oil So you can kerosene, diadiesel, and then propane in Vermont. And that's the retail distributor. Sold in bulk is the language in the green books for the session law, which means it comes in a truck and is delivered to the consumer. So that does not include wholesalers of propane or heating oil or kerosene or dihydesel, and it does not include individuals that may bring fuel in small quantities, not in bulk. So think of, like, a a tanker truck, a twenty eight hundred gallon oil truck, or a bobtail propane truck. And the all every entity that does that must pay their tax on the twenty fifth of the month, and there is a comprehensive list of those entities, but they don't include all sellers in the vehicle because those include transporters or wholesalers or small distributors or small people that move small quantities. [Laura Sibilia]: Well, who? Yeah. Yep. Who are people that move small quantities as opposed to distributors? So if someone has it's you don't have [Matt Cota]: to have a hazardous materials designation on your truck if you carry less than a hundred and ten gallons, like, in a skid tank. So someone could put, if you had a Ford f two fifty with a skid tank and you wanted to fuel up, tractors in the woods. [Laura Sibilia]: So that's your those are people with personal or commercial consumption needs. Right? They're not selling that vehicle. [Matt Cota]: No. These these are these are for those that are dye diesel is a is a untacked diesel fuel used for wood vehicles and farm tractors. Oftentimes, they don't use a delivery bulk delivery vehicle. They use a smaller transport. [Laura Sibilia]: So the the data that I am interested in, I don't know about the rest of the committee, is understanding the number of businesses that sell heating fuel in the state of Vermont [Richard Bailey]: through [Laura Sibilia]: the data that we currently collect. So they collect the number of do they collect it geographically, like, where they're located? I know their distribution routes and areas may be different. [Matt Cota]: If if I may, the challenge with using the tax as the most comprehensive number, the challenge is is that there can be entities Right. That one one taxpayer representing multiple geographic areas. So, for instance, a company that has retail distributors in ten different towns, but it only pays once. [Laura Sibilia]: So I'm very satisfied, manager, for round one to be just the number [Kathleen James]: you mistake. In aggregate, that I mean, we could see we get a sense of sales volumes Yeah. [Laura Sibilia]: The sales volumes. From tax too. Yeah. The number of businesses and sales plan. Okay. And, [Kathleen James]: Ellen. Yes. I guess I [Speaker 8 ]: did wanna just clarify. So on line one, it does say heating fuel sellers. The, the fuel tax that's in title thirty three does use the the phrase, fuel supplier. I didn't know if that would help this clarify this, that that is the data you're seeking. I think we [Laura Sibilia]: can I I would take Ellen's recommendation? But [Kathleen James]: Yep. I would take Ellen's recommendation, and I would also if mister Coda has specific, like, accurate thoughts about how we could I wanna make sure we're getting the data that exists and that we're asking for. And if there if this is awarded properly and you have thoughts on how we could board it so so that it's accurate, that would be helpful. [Speaker 10 ]: Thank you. That makes buyers a lot broader, and it includes more than their retail sales. That's That'd be my opinion. [Christopher Howland]: Anybody along excuse me. That's scary. Yeah. Anybody along the chain from the wholesale the supplier is everybody from the time it comes across the state line to the time it goes into the fill tilt pipe at the home. [Kathleen James]: Yeah. And in the interest of keeping it simple, which [Laura Sibilia]: I think is difficult then to do. Yeah. [Matt Cota]: So under as I understand that, this is much better than I do, but in thirty three b s a two five zero three, the definition of which the tax department is responsible of collecting the names, the addresses, and the gallons of the tax is heating fuels delivered in bulk. And that that is in thirty three BSA two five zero three. That's that's all that's the only thing they're gonna have. They're not gonna have the person with a skintank that delivers in the woods, and they're not gonna have Okay. The the big wholesaler around the corner. [Kathleen James]: So heat tools delivered in bulk, and you said they have the name. They have the address, which they're probably not may or may not wanna share, and then they have the [Laura Sibilia]: So we need the sellers and the volume. [Speaker 8 ]: Yeah. We can make the sellers. Sellers. I think [Laura Sibilia]: Yeah. Yes. I think we [Christopher Howland]: can make the whole business. [Laura Sibilia]: Okay. Sellers of heating tools delivered in bulk. Delivered in bulk. [Kathleen James]: Sounds like they'll mesh up with what tax to use collecting. Right, Ellen? Is [Speaker 8 ]: is that what you're looking for, delivered in bulk? Yes. [Laura Sibilia]: I don't know. Okay. Okay. I I so I'm hearing you say there's specific language I'm hearing. Yeah. I I would say there's specific language. What I want what I am interested in us understanding is how many fuel sellers, like, how many people are selling fuel to Vermonters in the state. K. [Richard Bailey]: What is delivered in bulk? I mean, does that mean you pull up pull up a truck to a house and and forth filling the other codes? [Matt Cota]: It's important to know what it doesn't mean. It doesn't mean Global Oil's terminal in Burlington or Verlander's terminal or Verardo's terminal in Burlington, NGL's terminal in Burlington. It doesn't include that at all. Just the ones that deliver it to your house or your building and then and then put it in the bank. [Richard Bailey]: Everybody knows that's what deliverable is. Okay. That's what I know. I mean, I'm glad. [Kathleen James]: So, Ellen, you'll so far so good. You'll sync up the language so that we get specifically at Ag Weights and Measures on the first one and whatever tax has on this the tax department has on the second one. So that's why I keep circling back around to this. I I just wanna make sure that whatever we however you worded, Ellen, is super obvious. Like, oh, that's what tax collects. You know? Oh, that's what we get from Ag Weights and Measures. [Speaker 8 ]: I'm sorry. Were so are you adding [Kathleen James]: No. All you? [Laura Sibilia]: I don't know. [Richard Bailey]: I thought we just talked about that. [Kathleen James]: I think volume would be interesting because we could see every year [Laura Sibilia]: if it's [Kathleen James]: going up or down. Right. [Richard Bailey]: Oh, that that that actually suggests another point. So we're talking about the prior year here, but since this will be the first year of doing this, should we ask for a little bit more history and then say supplemental data for the prior year or something like [Laura Sibilia]: that. Mhmm. That's interesting. Yeah. [Richard Bailey]: Maybe five years previous or something. I don't know. [Laura Sibilia]: That would be I'd turn interested. [Speaker 8 ]: I did have a bigger picture question. So is are ANR and DPS coming back with suggested language on Wednesday? [Kathleen James]: They are coming back. [Laura Sibilia]: Part two. [Kathleen James]: For part two. Yep. And in the meantime, hopefully, we'll have a more refined, you know, thought. [Laura Sibilia]: So I I think, madam chair, that they're coming back with suggestions for us of what we should have asked for. Yeah. [Speaker 8 ]: Oh, in part. There's In part. [Laura Sibilia]: Oh, okay. So that we're gonna collect simple do some simple analysis and also ask ANR and others to provide us with additional information, and they're coming to tell us what that is. [Kathleen James]: And we know so far they're reaching out to ANR ANR is reaching out to DPS, I think PC. Right? And also DOL. VDOT. So they're coming back with thoughts on part two. So we start with our simple list, and then we'll come back. We'll we'll hear from them about what they think part two of this could be. So we have so far working painstakingly through. We have the information that we can get from AG, weights and measures department on the every gas pump that has a meter per egg. And from the tax department, we're gonna find out the number of heating fuel sellers and volume from heating fuels delivered in full. Hey, number two? [Speaker 8 ]: The number of electric vehicle supply equipment in the state and if there was any change in the number in the prior year. [Laura Sibilia]: Yep. Suggestion. I don't know all of the datasets to exist, but we heard from Vintranz. We know that Commerce also has some data, I believe. So I think it would just [Speaker 9 ]: let me see. Action here. [Laura Sibilia]: They're unfortunately approved. So just the yeah. Just the number as reported by the trans and the CCD. The overall goal here is to highlight potential [Speaker 9 ]: data [Laura Sibilia]: service or inch points for the remote. I [Bram Kleppner]: I have another couple of questions. One is we care about the overall number of places we've been charged or the number of public places we've been charged. We care about all the electrical vehicle supply equipment in Naples Garage and SEC. I don't [Kathleen James]: I don't think we do. We do. [Christopher Howland]: I mean, unless I think that would [Laura Sibilia]: be a part two. [Bram Kleppner]: We might wanna add public to this. Public is available. Yeah. And the second question is, do we we wanna differentiate between level two versus level three and a five, which is to say fast level three and a five with the fast chargers. We wanna track the progress of fast char public fast charging stations versus, like, the ones down here, which are public, but we'll just add not enough if you're traveling. We don't want it to stop for ten minutes and keep going. You gotta stop for a few hours. [Laura Sibilia]: Which I I think if it's if it's already reported. But it hopefully, what would be illuminated as a result of all this data, at least in my mind, is, oh, there's no public charging stations, and the gas station has now gone. [Christopher Howland]: Right. [Laura Sibilia]: Or or, you know, like, there's really becoming an an issue. So I don't know what the answer is not because somebody who drives do you have a recommendation? I I drive as [Bram Kleppner]: Well, I and, you know, again, to my earlier question, if our concern is areas of the state where people don't have access to the power they need to move, we need to know the locations as well as the numbers. It could be that we build out a huge number of level three chargers along the interstates, but leave other areas completely without making them not particularly viable for people traveling across the northern part of the state going from Burlington to Saint Johnsbury, for instance. Just just for example. [Laura Sibilia]: For example. [Richard Bailey]: So I, yeah, I think yeah. I think we we wanna know if I'm understanding your sponsor correctly, I think what we wanna know is the locations. So the number of publicly available electric fields supply equipment locations in the state seems like what we're asking for, isn't it? [Laura Sibilia]: Yes. Yeah. [Richard Bailey]: The the number and and location. [Laura Sibilia]: But it should be should be able to be differentiated by what the law does. Right? I mean, I think that's data that they had. [Richard Bailey]: Well and that and we're gonna do this iteratively. So maybe a future, you know, few future fine tuning would be to get more data about the level one. Is it level two? How many ports are there? Things like that would be useful to add at some point, but maybe we don't have to do that right away. How long is it? [Christopher Howland]: No. Sorry. Maybe it's representative. Campbell just identified it. Number of ports greater than four and the four units at the hundred and fifty kV and above. That that that that is. So speed of charge at the hundred and fifty kV and above, there's a quick charge in the four units. So the when I bought my hybrid in two thousand fifteen, the Ford dealer had to put in level two charging in order to sell the sell the car where the next dealer down the road didn't have the charging station, so they couldn't carry the model. But that was ten years twelve. So thank you. But so I think I guess I'm asking, is is that the right number, the public four units? And then when they testified, I asked about the three pays and the hundred and fifty kV signed the thing. It was a little six hundred eight hundred. [Richard Bailey]: I I could imagine there there's a lot of data that will be useful to know. I I I think if we're we're trying to keep this as as as easy and small as possible so that we're not making, you know, much of work for people. But once once we have, whoever this is, probably AOT providing the information about where these charges are, That that that and asking for a little bit more data about it would be easier to add on later. It's I think it's the strategy that we're trying to do here. [Kathleen James]: Yep. So we're going for public. Oh, I'm sorry. Prep software? No. [Richard Bailey]: Nope. Finish your call. [Kathleen James]: That's it. I my thought was finished. [Speaker 8 ]: The number, location, and type of public electric vehicle supply. [Kathleen James]: That's why you're an attorney. [Laura Sibilia]: Representative? Thank you. [Speaker 10 ]: Will this potential reporting include private for profit charging stations that someone takes it upon themselves to insult without any public assistance, help, or grants, or anything like that. Sure. Yeah. Publicly available. Right. But how is that how is that recorded? How is that tracked? Gotcha. And they they do have that data. And so it it just in my mind, we're opening up a rabbit hole because there's gonna be all kinds of variations of public charging that, you know, something they put in at a gas station, which we may not know about. So Right. On their own dime in order to make money in a different way. So I I just don't know if it's gonna be a completely accurate number that you're looking at. Somebody knows where those places are. Probably would know that. [Laura Sibilia]: So that's new data. That's I mean, I am thinking about the data that we've been shown. Right? You're talking about new data. That's not data that we are seeing yet. Right? [Speaker 10 ]: And we're arguing that they could be in existence now for a whole week. [Laura Sibilia]: Yes. But we Yeah. Are not collecting that data now. So that, to me, would be [Richard Bailey]: Well, somebody is. [Laura Sibilia]: Somebody is collecting the data on [Richard Bailey]: You have I I mean, it does I mean, it's a question further out. I heard it. But doesn't isn't there some sort of permitting process for putting in a ChargePoint or EVgo release that utilities. Oh. Because they've been they're being allowed to charge by the by the telephone hour. [Speaker 8 ]: I watched the testimony that they brought you, and I can't remember. I don't know if that information is actually already captured in their data. So I think you could revisit that. Is the Public Utility Commission also in possession of that data? Yes. Potentially. [Richard Bailey]: I think we're at [Speaker 8 ]: So but I don't think they testified on that. [Kathleen James]: So where we're at right now is the number of publicly available the number, location, and type of publicly available EDSE. [Richard Bailey]: I think representative of a good question. Maybe we don't know that. Again, some of that takes. So maybe maybe yeah. What Follow-up [Laura Sibilia]: for Vibrance? We'll have to find [Speaker 8 ]: Oh, GPS. I mean, GPS might have [Kathleen James]: too. Okay. Yes. Yep. [Laura Sibilia]: I wonder if weights if Ag, weights and measures, it has to inspect [Richard Bailey]: Oh, but we didn't. We [Laura Sibilia]: The EVs? The public the private EVs? [Speaker 10 ]: That's fluid. They they wouldn't do electric. [Richard Bailey]: No. They do. Actually, we put that in the transportation bill last year. Yeah. I think there is something. [Speaker 8 ]: This this is actually why I didn't think you should list the agencies, but [Kathleen James]: We're not. We're not listing the agencies. I in my mind, the reason we're having such a detailed conversation is to actually go through this. To me, this process is useful because if we have these conversations and realize we're asking for something that doesn't exist in my mind, it's off the list for now, and they can come back next year with with more information. So I'm trying to, like, sync up the testimony we heard with the language on the page to make sure that we're without listing agencies, we're asking very specifically for something where VTrans is like, oh, that's slide two. Or an ag is like, oh, that's weights and measures meter pump you know, pumps on the meter so that we're not asking for for complicated data. And then and they can come back, you know, tell us what what we're missing. [Richard Bailey]: I'll I can I can [Bram Kleppner]: read here the weights and measures section of the Vermont agency of the ags food and markets has the responsibility to regulate all weights and measures dot dot dot? The weights and measures program will be testing and inspecting electrical vehicle supply meters used commercially in direct sales to consumers, not those operated by a public utility system? [Richard Bailey]: Yeah. I so we put that in. I think the transportation bill last year, we have possibly a year before. I don't remember when they were starting, but I do remember them talking about having to acquire these calibration meters in order to be able to make sure they're thank you. Yep. So they they either are doing it or we'll be [Speaker 10 ]: doing it. Yep. And Stacie, I just wanna reserve a a question back up after [Richard Bailey]: you're done going through with that, though. So I I don't wanna interrupt the call [Laura Sibilia]: at this point. But Okay. Let's go first. I only need my mouth. I'm correct. I'm so rep you need what representative Putnam said. [20 seconds of silence] [Richard Bailey]: Inside of [Speaker 10 ]: there. So I have a lot of concern over that, and I'll tell you why. Why did they close? Are we gonna go that deep and we're gonna find out why they closed? Did they close because they just it was time for them to retire, so it's turned up. Is the tank coming to its end of the line? Is it regulations forced on them and taxes forced on them by the state that caused them to close? So those are all questions. I don't think we're gonna get that answered from you this, And and that's concerning to me. And I know that we have used the term fuel desert that's been floating around in in the committee. I don't know. Right. Okay? So one of my concerns is that's not an existing issue at the moment yet. The number of qualified certified heat pump repairmen and sellers is. But, no. But we're not comparing apples to apples with this. We're just going after one and not the other. So I consider that the desert that's in play at this moment, not the heating fuel number. [Speaker 9 ]: Yeah. Sorry. Shall [Laura Sibilia]: we add the heating fuel techs in here then? [Speaker 10 ]: Honestly, I am not for any more reports. I've I've stated that on this bill before. And I just it fluctuates me that we're we're putting more and more, but we're not looking at what we can do now just to make it work. We're trying to regulate something that isn't an issue with this. [Laura Sibilia]: I don't know [Kathleen James]: that I agree. [Laura Sibilia]: I don't think we know. Well, I [Speaker 9 ]: don't think we know. I think, actually, like, in your [Laura Sibilia]: in there are parts of the state, I shouldn't say yours, like, in WACC territory, for instance, where folks may be experiencing a big burden both because of their electric rates [Kathleen James]: and [Laura Sibilia]: who knows what else kind of coincides with that, which might emerge as a we have a problem here that we need to solve. Like, give us more information about how to solve that problem. That's Yeah. That is my position. [Speaker 10 ]: Just the information exists, and I fall back to that. It's already there, and I just I stumble with trying to create something else to give us the information that's already there. That that's the bottom line. [Laura Sibilia]: What do you mean that's already there? [Speaker 10 ]: So the number of fuel sellers operating in the states there Yep. You could compare it against the previous year. You could compare it against Yes. So So that information already exists. That that that's all. [Laura Sibilia]: No one is looking at like, I do not believe that we have and I think I think that actually said this, you know, this information exists in disparate places, but it's not actually something we're considering all of it together. And I don't know what the right data pieces are to eliminate, like, oh, we may have a problem here, or we may need to think about we're not this particular section of Vermont is really experiencing more higher price, you know, because people are not experiencing the same energy prices throughout the state. But there's not. [Kathleen James]: I think too, how this would be used in my [Laura Sibilia]: mind access competition. How [Kathleen James]: this would be used in my mind, rep south would be like if we pass this bill out, and we asked them to look the last five years and then update it annually with readily available data. So, literally, somebody spends five minutes sending a spreadsheet to do BS so that they can include this in the in the report. We might we might, as a legislature, because that's where this report is coming. It's coming to us next year. And we might immediately see, oh, wow. Last five years, fuel gallons are dropping and but EV charging infrastructure is dropping. Let's take some testimony. I I don't see this as being the end all be all report that's gonna provide all the answers. It's just to me, in my mind, it's supposed to flag Okay. Flag areas that we need to look into. Representative Roland, [Laura Sibilia]: I have had a stand up. [Christopher Howland]: Well, I have a problem with the some of this language with the number of sellers. I just read recently about a firm that bought another dealer in Vermont. I don't know if I'm allowed to say names of corporations. [Laura Sibilia]: Probably not. [Christopher Howland]: But so if a company calls b and buys b and c company, the number of sellers just reduced by two. [Matt Cota]: Yeah. [Christopher Howland]: But then However, [Dara Torre]: we're tracking gallons. [Christopher Howland]: Where are we tracking gallons? [Dara Torre]: We've got that. [Richard Bailey]: So [Speaker 9 ]: I think we did add gallons. [Christopher Howland]: Okay. I'm excited. Yep. The point. Alright. Okay. So alright, so if that's what you wanna wanna track, but I I I also wanted to make the statement we we've said a lot about deserts here, but we now have an islands. Meaning [Bram Kleppner]: meaning [Christopher Howland]: you will still get there from here. You just have to go a little further. And when the bulk delivery system in my area, I perceive a location where whether you're a truck or Ed's truck or whatever, whether they live in the boonies, they come down to and fill up, and they drive back both, and they make their deliveries in their territory. And whether they go down the night before and come I don't think the number of distributor, the the bulk the the real bulk tanks, the ones where all the little mom and pop dealers or whatever, fill their tanks up and go back. There's still that people doing servicing those areas where Ed retires or goes out of business because he can't make a go of it are going There's still gonna be people that are gonna bring fuel to that desert. They're not an island that they can't get fuel sometime. As far as you mentioned I'm sorry. I'm not supposed to say user people, but [Speaker 9 ]: No. Go ahead. [Christopher Howland]: Mention of price for me. The mention of price was said here. And I'm a little bit of a capitalist that I don't like to lose money on transactions. I I'm out of a belief that if you can't make money, increase your number of transactions to increase your your profits. I'm not in the I've never been other than associated with [Matt Cota]: friends that are in [Christopher Howland]: the business of fuel delivery. I don't know what the the markup that any fuel supplier says that I have to charge you a little more because you're fifteen miles to down. I don't I don't know if they've increment their prices by their service territory. I've only bought fuel in the homes that I own. [Speaker 9 ]: Helen? I just wanna do [Speaker 8 ]: a time check because Yeah. I think you do have witnesses after me. [Kathleen James]: We do. We're almost we're almost done. And I [Speaker 8 ]: will be back next week with an updated draft for [Speaker 9 ]: the discussion. [Kathleen James]: Well, we got through two things. [Speaker 8 ]: So, representative [Laura Sibilia]: Holland, the thing that I am concerned about so it's not that no one is going to come. It's that you start getting into places where we have we may have monopolies. If you have a monopoly on something like heating fuel, I'm not actually convinced that that's in the best interest of all our monitors. I think, you know, we have we have government. We have, things that are regulated by the government to make sure that there is quality and customer service and access, and then we have things that are regulated by the market to make sure that there's quality and customer service and access. And to be regulated by the market, which is what we have now, we need competition. Competition means we need a lot. We need a lot of dealer sellers. And so to me, it's relevant to understand if we're getting less sellers, that's important to understand. And to represent our Southworth's point, we're not gonna get here, but perhaps DPS will recommend in part two why, You know, maybe helpful information, but the number is important in terms of that competitive market, which helps to keep price down and and customer service up. [Kathleen James]: So Okay. Helen, are you here until two o'clock? Because we have two minutes left. Yeah. Okay. [Speaker 8 ]: I'm free to stay, but I I do think you have witnesses actually. [Kathleen James]: You do. Who's coming in too? We had some bill introductions. [Speaker 9 ]: Yeah. That's it. [Laura Sibilia]: Yep. Okay. [Kathleen James]: I I wonder if we could quickly so perhaps not talk about the why we're doing this and how if if if I wonder if we could quickly try to get through the last remaining data points on the thing because we could argue all day about I think we all know what we're trying to do here. So let's quickly talk about the last remaining points. So electric rates and whether there were any changes that should be very easily gettable from our regulators. And the number of renewable energy development companies operating in the state, I don't know if [Speaker 8 ]: we can get that. So TJ didn't TJ say he's got that? They've put out a report? I mean, I think perhaps that term needs to be, clarified on what specific kind of companies you are, but the department puts out a report regarding the energy workforce. Yeah. But I don't know I don't know exactly what the data they have is, but I do think we may need to clarify the term there. K. [Kathleen James]: So sorry. [Richard Bailey]: Oh, shit. That's okay. [Kathleen James]: Okay. Hang on. Just before we take more comments or questions, just trying to get through this. So the state agencies that collect data provide it. I think I was interested in the idea, I wonder, of adding the past five years so that the first right off the crack is something useful, and then we can update it annually. And for part two, we're waiting to hear back from ANR and DPS next week, and they're gonna come back and say, here's what we think you could do right now, and here's a paragraph we think you could add to the end of this bill that could show what phase two of this project might be if we if we move it out of committee. So quickly, summary comments just on the actual language. Yes. Sorry. [Speaker 8 ]: I also I'm I would like to propose that you add a sentence that is included generally in other report sections that I neglected, which is that this report shall not expire. Yes. Because we have a general provision that reports expire in five years, and so I would just like to add that as a case for you or because I think you would like this [Laura Sibilia]: to be eight. Yes. So [Kathleen James]: Yep. It'll get more and more useful over time. Okay. I see one, two, three. And so let's do three [Richard Bailey]: quick comments. Mhmm. Briefly, so, Ellen, you're you're you captured that we're gonna do this five years retrospectively and then annually thereafter. Right? Yes. Okay. And the other point that is that I wanna make is that, this is not going to be a comprehensive answer all questions kind of kind of a of a report here. This is this is a simple prompt questions, not necessarily answer answer questions initially. We'll we'll find it further as we go along. I think that's I I tried to respond to some prep software's concerns about why this is did this these changes. [Bram Kleppner]: That's a Regarding our interest in knowing the numbers and locations of gas pumps and electric charging stations relative to the concern about areas that aren't served, I pose this as a question for us to contemplate until next week. Do we want a map instead of a list? [Laura Sibilia]: I see that, Pamela. Oh, yeah. We I'll [Richard Bailey]: too try, but that that feels like it's subsequent iteration. [Kathleen James]: Which one? You mean for the overall [Bram Kleppner]: Yeah. I mean, my looking at two maps that show where the gas stations are in the state is gonna tell me a lot more than a spreadsheet in terms of, oh, look. There were three in that area, and they all disappeared. [Christopher Howland]: A lot better than listing them whether they're in Canon or or Chester. [Richard Bailey]: Yeah. [Christopher Howland]: I mean, it it would because list can be alphabetical or whatever. And having experience in GIS and its development, it's not a big deal if to incorporate a spreadsheet or a list of Too many. Pinpoints on a on a GIS system as long as they're intertied by the GIS gurus. [Kathleen James]: Maybe we wanna map in the list. [Richard Bailey]: We can. [Kathleen James]: Okay. [Laura Sibilia]: Yes. [Speaker 5 ]: Just an observation. The in my, when I travel to Newport, I'm finding that these little general stores that have gas stations are selling gas thirty cents less than where I'm buying to buy all ten. That they're using it as a marketing ploy to get people to their store. Believe me, when I'm driving by, I'm telling you to get gas. [Richard Bailey]: Sure. [Speaker 5 ]: So I help that figure out a little bit. Once I get in there, they got all these goodies in there that I'm also picking up for stuff. You're a drink. [Richard Bailey]: You got it? No. [Speaker 5 ]: But I'm I'm a pastry guy. [Dara Torre]: We're laying on us. [Kathleen James]: Alright. We need to let Owen do. [Christopher Howland]: EK Poor testified about these development companies that name each each project is a separate LLC or or whatever. And I don't know if we're capturing that in or or what? As the rate of development may decrease as build out continues and I if they call it, offer or whatever. Mhmm. But we may see a a decrease in projects. And that is that decrease in projects also a decrease in would reflect a decrease in companies when the companies themselves, the big guys, are still out there looking for sites and negotiating for rentals, leases, and and lands land to put sites on. [Kathleen James]: That's a good comment slash question. [Laura Sibilia]: Okay. I can hang out if you'd like me to. Sure. That would be me. We can come back to school. Right? [Speaker 8 ]: No. No. No. I because [Laura Sibilia]: the three builder girls take up our mind. No. No. No. For sure. [Kathleen James]: Alright. No. That'd be great, Ellen, if you wanna hang out. That'd be super. Alright. Who is next? We're gonna do we're gonna wrap up the week with some pitch sessions. So we're gonna move through some bill introductions with some bill sponsors. So representative Logan, are you up first? Okay. I think so. Thanks, Matt. [Richard Bailey]: Thank you. Thanks. [Kathleen James]: Hey. [Bram Kleppner]: There are copies of the bill on [Laura Sibilia]: the way as well. Great. [Kathleen James]: Would you like me [Speaker 9 ]: to wait for the copies to arrive? [Kathleen James]: I'm not gonna go on FireLine, and [Speaker 9 ]: Google unless you'd like me to. [Kathleen James]: No. I think well, for the record? [Speaker 9 ]: For the record, I have representative Kate Logan from the community on environment sponsor of this h one ninety six. Super. [Kathleen James]: Do you should I be turning ourselves to Kate? Representative Kathleen James? Scott Gabel who's at Jalisbury. [Speaker 10 ]: Richard Bailey, Illinois too. Chris Morrow in the Winds of Bennington. Michael Southworth in Pellegonia too. [Kathleen James]: Christopher Howland? [Speaker 10 ]: Oh, Christopher Howland. [Dara Torre]: Dara Torrey, welcome. [Christopher Howland]: Graham Cluckner [Bram Kleppner]: of Burlington. [Speaker 9 ]: Oh. There's a lady. [Kathleen James]: Alright. Representative Logan. Thanks. It's good [Speaker 9 ]: to be back at the table with my energy buddies from last session. So I sponsored a bill that has a companion in the senate, s sixty five, that will pass over to the house at some point. They're working on it right now. So the bill that you have is the amended bill, and they're in the process of making changes to the bill. So when it comes over, it'll have some modifications. But I'm happy to get you ready to think about this, though, before it comes over from the senate. So it this is titled An Act Relating to Energy Efficiency Utility Jurisdiction. And I'll just be really brief, and then I can get into much as much detail as you want to. Essentially, the policy problem that this solves is that the efficiency utility statutory priorities were initially focused on driving down electricity use through efficiency measures. So that was the initial intention. And I would argue that it it's time to explicitly update the efficiency utility utility statutory priorities [Laura Sibilia]: to [Speaker 9 ]: include not just decreasing energy usage, but decreasing energy cost, overall energy usage across multisectors, and greenhouse gas emissions from all sources of energy. So what we're doing is we're expanding, formally expanding the scope of the of the efficiency utilities to include emissions reductions as well as targets around providing services to low and moderate income households and nonprofit and small businesses. So, overall, this will increase electricity usage, so that's why we need to have this statutory intervention because that's counterintuitive. The efficiency utilities was created to drive down the use of enter of of electricity, but we are actually expanding the scope of the work that they can do so that they might, in fact, increase our usage of electricity. So it will increase overall electricity usage, but will decrease overall energy usage and will also decrease greenhouse gas emissions. So for example, pump installation. It's electric. It increases your use of electricity in the household, but decreases your overall energy consumption, your overall energy cost, and greenhouse gas emissions. And then, like I said, we need to ensure that an adequate amount of efficiency utility services are targeted to, certain kinds of customers. Those would be the customers who have the least capacity to make these changes themselves. But proving the savings would be a significant portion of their energy costs, so it's best use of the resources. That's my overview of not getting into the in any gritty details at all. Yeah. [Kathleen James]: So, Rob Logan, just to be so this would apply to Efficiency Vermont, Burlington Electric, and Vermont Gas. Those are our three what are our three efficiency utilities? Utilities. Yeah. [Christopher Howland]: That's Efficiencies, Vermont, Vermont Gas. They're not Vermont Gas. Burlington Electric does their own energy efficiency internal. [Laura Sibilia]: Yep. The all the So I'm [Speaker 9 ]: giving it to you. [Kathleen James]: Okay. And so their basically, their mission or their their scope of work would allow them to move beyond only Electric. Yeah. Only electricity, only energy efficiency measures. Well, electricity efficiency measures. Yes. Electricity efficiency measures. Yeah. To say, we are also going to allow you in charter or statue or or whatever to do weatherization, to do heat pump installation. Yeah. [Speaker 9 ]: To use funds from the electricity efficiency fund, which I think this bill would rename to the efficiency fund. Right. So to use funds from that that charge you get on your electricity bill to do these to do these measures that are across energy centers there. K. [Richard Bailey]: And and then metric then would be green out gas reductions rather than AWA AWH reductions, the metric of success. [Speaker 9 ]: I'm not actually I'm not entirely clear how the what how the metric would change. That's a great question. I think it would be both. [Richard Bailey]: Well, because as you mentioned [Speaker 9 ]: But electricity usage will go up. Right. [Richard Bailey]: Yeah. [Speaker 8 ]: So there will need [Richard Bailey]: As you mentioned, the the the electric that's yeah. Okay. We can get that. Yeah. [Laura Sibilia]: It's not I'm not just but it's not just a reduction. Right? [Richard Bailey]: For the electric use of the the the metric it's it's JWA safe. It's it's it's it's it's air conditioning, which is measured for the JWA during actually, end of the week, megawatt hours. [Kathleen James]: Mhmm. Representative Morrow, then southward? [Speaker 11 ]: Two questions. One, so the deficiency Vermont is now they have rebate programs really. The heat pumps and heat pump, hot water heaters, and whatnot. Correct me if I'm wrong. That's funded through a different mechanism. Correct. So you're this this bill is allowing them to use the [Speaker 9 ]: Makes it very explicit, the JDM. [Speaker 11 ]: The surcharge on okay. So it's not like the the RGGI money. [Speaker 9 ]: Yeah. So it expands the funding sort of for the those programs that they already have. [Speaker 11 ]: Right. Second question is how does this relate to the governor's fifteen million dollars? This is basically what he wanted to do with his budget address, We'll get to the fifteen million dollars. [Speaker 9 ]: Are you talking about the governor's climate proposal? [Christopher Howland]: You might No. You mentioned fifteen [Speaker 11 ]: million dollars in efficiency Vermont, specifically, it's budgeted there. Oh. But I couldn't get details on that from the administration. So I was I was just need to trying to know. No. [Speaker 10 ]: It sounds me you're gonna be [Christopher Howland]: recommending it. I can't But [Laura Sibilia]: this bill was not Okay. [Speaker 9 ]: This bill was offered separately. [Richard Bailey]: Yeah. [Laura Sibilia]: So I Never mind. Yeah. So I I would think that it's not it's not part of that. Right. Yeah. Yeah. [Kathleen James]: Oh, sorry. South Forest. Thank you. All over the place. So [Speaker 10 ]: Are there increased fees or taxes attached to this? No. [Richard Bailey]: None at all. [Laura Sibilia]: So this separate. Okay. Is electric rate payer dollars still. Correct. And it is allowing them allowing the efficiency utilities to use that for thermal reduction. And so In [Speaker 9 ]: the case of the the electric vehicle incentives. How about for VGS? I don't think so. Those those are those are over the ones. [Laura Sibilia]: So that's something that is an interesting thing to [Christopher Howland]: think about for that [Laura Sibilia]: Yeah. [Speaker 9 ]: There are all these utility. Well, BUD has a special dispensation to do this small amount of ambiance and the practice part of this. [Laura Sibilia]: The other question I have is have you consider or is it addressed in here how this might conflict with tier [Speaker 9 ]: three responsibilities. Responsibilities. Yeah. That the EU much utilities have. Yeah. [Laura Sibilia]: They'll have to work it out. Yeah. [Speaker 9 ]: That they'll have to work out who's doing what, which they did originally when implementing tier [Laura Sibilia]: three. Right. And I would imagine that they would not want duplicate of programming. Okay. [Kathleen James]: Thank you. Well, if you [Richard Bailey]: know, strikes me that it would it might provide another avenue for the DU's to find ways that would be said to be required about using the the services before the programs of the the the artificial utilities. But what I was gonna ask is I know. Whether you had [Kathleen James]: Yeah. [Richard Bailey]: Help developing this from basically, Vermont or or other artificial utilities in order to sort of come up with the language or how how did that go? I You can afford them for these. Yeah. [Speaker 9 ]: Yeah. That's a good question. I originally put in the drafting request without talking to anybody, actually, based on things that were just left over from last session that I I did a few bills like that. You'll see them. [Laura Sibilia]: Yeah. We do. This year. [Speaker 9 ]: But this then I found out that a similar bill was being drafted by senator Watson. So then I started working with her, and then we brought in Peter Wach who also consulted with BED. And I don't we I didn't speak with any of the DUs. Yeah. [Matt Cota]: So [Richard Bailey]: that was part of the development of it, though, or you Yes. Okay. Okay. Great. [Speaker 9 ]: Yeah. [Richard Bailey]: Okay. Thanks. [Kathleen James]: Alright. One more quick question. [Matt Cota]: Thank you. [Kathleen James]: Two. Yeah? [Speaker 10 ]: Page thirteen, section d. Now the way I read that, it's working around low income energy efficiency rate for regulated fuels. Can you explain that? Is that what is is that price related? [Speaker 9 ]: Yeah. So this is requesting a study [Richard Bailey]: Okay. [Speaker 9 ]: By September first to propose how we might address a sort of, like, a progressive rate paying structure. [Speaker 10 ]: So the other part of the question then would be wouldn't that turn into a higher cost for other ratepayers? [Speaker 9 ]: That is why we need a study on it. [Richard Bailey]: Yeah. Thank you. [Speaker 9 ]: Yeah. How we would solve the fairness issue. [Richard Bailey]: Thank you. [Kathleen James]: Yeah. Alright. One more quick question. [Speaker 5 ]: Yeah. Is efficiency efficiency the right person to be doing this work, the I forget what they're called. The efficiency utility. Yeah. And you're saying we're gonna use the efficiency charge off our electric bill to fund thermal. [Richard Bailey]: Yeah. That's all. Is that Okay. [Speaker 5 ]: And that that I call it a tax, but charge can be adjusted by the EFC without any authorization from the legislature. [Matt Cota]: That's true. So [Speaker 5 ]: there's a potential that it could go on? Yeah. [Speaker 9 ]: The The increase. Electricity charge for The efficiency charge. [Laura Sibilia]: Oh. No. That's Yeah. No. [Speaker 9 ]: That's that's [Kathleen James]: us. That's us. We said that. [Speaker 11 ]: We're in the in the cabinet. [Laura Sibilia]: No. Mhmm. No? [Speaker 9 ]: We're sorry. I believe that's part of their Proposal. They have [Dara Torre]: to go in front of the PUC just like any other utility, their budget [Speaker 9 ]: and everything. But [Dara Torre]: what it what I understand would be the case with electricity is that the sales of electricity are going to go up, which means that the actual charge for our EEU fee is likely to come down. Perfect. A lot of effort. [Laura Sibilia]: A lot of effort. [Dara Torre]: And so, you know, I believe I don't know if that's still in here that there is something about a budget cap [Speaker 9 ]: Yeah. There is. To get it at that concern you're raising. Yes. Rep. And that's what I that's an amendment [Laura Sibilia]: from where is that at? Oh, no. There we [Speaker 9 ]: go. Yeah. Page four. Since line, lines twelve through the fourteenth. So the efficiency facility, the total annual budget three year budget, that's equivalent to the certification adjusted commission approved budget in twenty twenty six. And this is language that we just continue to include in legislation. Okay. [Kathleen James]: Let's take one more question, and then we need to move on to our next Sorry. [Bram Kleppner]: Very quickly. Is it not true that the efficiency use of the is it currently allowed to use that money for weatherization or reducing electricity use? [Speaker 9 ]: I actually don't have the answer to that yet. [Laura Sibilia]: Yeah. So they were Yeah. [Richard Bailey]: Some There's a limited storage that's Yeah. [Speaker 9 ]: It's it's like That happens. Around the edges. [Bram Kleppner]: But the swogging out into heat pumps, they weren't allowed to up until this. And because that, you know, keeps it, like, because it needs to feed into Yeah. [Speaker 10 ]: But [Speaker 9 ]: a small amount of their budget can be used for certain kinds of activities. So this liberalizes it. And, you know, we think allows for the [Kathleen James]: most effective used resources. Great. So, thank you, representative Logan. We know this bill is we're anticipating it's gonna come over from the senate, and I look forward to receiving it and working on it at the crossover. So thanks a lot. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Yeah. Thanks for coming in. [Richard Bailey]: Should we take [Kathleen James]: a little break? [Christopher Howland]: Oh, [Kathleen James]: I I see you're our next person. Okay. Yes. Because you know what? It's it's representatives Troy and Campbell. So can we come back at two thirty, and we'll do our last two bill pitches? [Richard Bailey]: And [Kathleen James]: then is that okay with

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SmartTranscript of House Energy and Digital Infrastructure 2025-02-21 1:00pm

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