SmartTranscript of House Energy and Digital Infrastructure 2025-02-21 10:30am

[Bram Kleppner]: We're on the live YouTube. [Chair Kathleen James]: Okay. Welcome, everybody. Friday, February twenty one, House Energy and Digital Infrastructure Committee. And we are here with Legislative Council and JFO, to continue our discussion of draft twenty five thousand and eight ninety six, an act relating to the Agency of Digital Services. So for the record, I am representative Kathleen James from the Bennington, Florida district. [Scott Campbell]: Hi. Scott Campbell from St. John's Ford. Richard Bailey, [Christopher Morrow]: you're the one on two. Chris Morrow, Wyndham, Windsor Bennington. Michael Southworth, Kellen Oginton. Christopher Howland, Rutland Ford. [Bram Kleppner]: Graham Budner, two in thirteen. [Laura Sibilia]: Laura Sebelia, Wyndham. Please. [Christopher Morrow]: Jack Walker, committee assistant. [Lisa Bowman]: Super. Lisa Bowman, JFO, IT consultant. Jack Lawrence Frasier, and Warren. Great. [Chair Kathleen James]: And I'm sorry. Representative Gainwell Gainwell. Alright. For the record. [Rick Sagal]: Oh, Rick Sagle, opposite of Legislative Council. Those of us here just yesterday. Very recently. [Chair Kathleen James]: Hey. That's good ones. [Rick Sagal]: Okay. I sent the chair and the QD assistant draft one point four, which is, I think, what you should have, Yep. Now with fun yellow highlights. Rex Sedalia held me to the fire. And, actually, this time, there's not as many changes that it's easier than this. Now I'm just talking to a full of yellow. So, madam chair, if I just kinda walk through my minor changes from last time? [Chair Kathleen James]: Yes, please. [Scott Campbell]: Okay. [Rick Sagal]: The first change is really grammatical. The current draft the statement of purpose, I changed the dashboards instead of dashboards. This current draft, there are two dashboards. There's a public and I'm sorry. A active project dashboard and a completed project dashboard. That would be two dashboards. So I changed it from dashboard to app boards. Much more well, the next I'm still on page one. We went through this during committee. Make sure you think the language makes sense. At the bottom of page one, I'm gonna start with the underlined portion and the extent to which the projects in subdivision four of that subsection are on track to the stated pro stated project business goals. We still have not defined business goals, but maybe that's something we can discuss now or maybe at the end of my walk through. [Chair Kathleen James]: Why don't we walk through your walk through [Scott Campbell]: and then come back? Because we need to [Lisa Bowman]: yes, walk through your walk. [Rick Sagal]: Okay. Well, I walk through. Page two, a much more the most substantial change to this draft. So subdivision four, previously, we were reusing some of that language, and then typing new language. I just decided to strike it and kinda reword it. I I think we need to we'll probably start fresh on subdivision four. Mhmm. [Scott Campbell]: And you'll notice some of [Rick Sagal]: the words are being reused, but, again, it's all strikethrough. So we're going to start with fresh language in this draft, and that is the following. Four IT projects with a total with total costs of five hundred thousand dollars or greater, an outline summary of information, which shall include the and we have some details, the scope of each project, which was in the current language, the status of each project, which is also in the current language, the comprehensive schedule of each project, including the original and current estimated date of completion, all previous estimated dates completion not included in that previous subdivision. So we intend there to catch any other history, so to speak, estimated dates that have come and gone to make sure that's included in that in that schedule. Three, the original and current estimated budget. And, again, four, all previous estimated budgets not included in subdivision three. If we can discuss that link, it makes sense. Maybe it was on some of the other changes. No changes on page three. On page four, the very bottom, I did my best to further define what current means. So I added the sentence highlighted in yellow. Current IT projects, including active and inactive projects, have not yet been completed. [Scott Campbell]: I'm wondering if we should have some of it all go add I don't know. It's right here. Someone in there is a big dollar about canceled projects. Because one of the things that they thought they're noted in in the report last June was about the Checkatrade state project that went off the rails completely and they canceled, and then they they had paid in advance to the contractor, which they were having a hard time getting back. Anyway, that kind of information seems like it would be useful too. I I don't know if it goes here or somewhere else, but I just don't want to forget about that. [Rick Sagal]: Yep. I I I could add to to the end of the seventies end projects that we canceled, something like this. [Scott Campbell]: Yeah. [Bram Kleppner]: You know, I wonder if we don't wanna add that on stage six line five into the completed projects dashboard that can be completed and or abandoned projects. [Scott Campbell]: Oh, yeah. Capture them there. Okay. Yeah. [Bram Kleppner]: Projects that have been completed and or abandoned in the last three years. [Rick Sagal]: Just a second. Why don't we get down to that? Yeah. We can kinda read through it. And then as we were looking at page six. And to kinda clarify, I got rid of the, section two that I added last time because I believe that these new highlights I've added have addressed the, let's call it transition period, but the the dates period as far as how back we're looking, how far back we're looking, and what current means. That language last time just kind of, I think, was needed. But now that we have further defined what completed means and what current means, I don't think we need that section two. But the change here is the agency's job maintain a project dashboard on its website that provides a history of all IT projects that have been completed in the last three years with a total completed cost of five hundred thousand dollars or greater. And then we can add in the can projects that have been canceled or abandoned. [Scott Campbell]: Good. Yep. Excuse me. What do we do about the five hundred thousand dollars we're at over I can't keep it out. We're gonna get rid of that, won't we? Could be all projects. They could [Rick Sagal]: I think if there's a consensus, but we can. Yeah. We can do that. [Laura Sibilia]: So as I recall, there was some discussion about yeah. But there was discussion I think the deputy auditors, I know, end up with, you know, their [Rick Sagal]: Oh, the small weeks. Small amount of data. Yeah. [Laura Sibilia]: That's right. So maybe a lower threshold So I wonder if [Lisa Bowman]: I'll say [Laura Sibilia]: Lisa Gautman might have a suggestion for us to level. [Scott Campbell]: Well and you [Chair Kathleen James]: know what? I thought we were waiting to hear from we wanted to hear from EDS on that. Now I'm remembering there were three three choices that we were gonna run by EDS. Right? The [Lisa Bowman]: I whether it was direct allocation Yes. Yeah. True. Or Aetna. Yeah. Because I think that it's whatever I think what we wanna do is choose however they identify the category that they identify with any type of view needed. So they've they've already kind of made that because they don't they don't do independent reviews, like, on bulk software purchase. [Scott Campbell]: Yeah. Like, no. It's So [Lisa Bowman]: I think they have that in mind, and I will ask them when I talk [Scott Campbell]: to them on Monday. Okay. That's right. That's what we can do. [Chair Kathleen James]: Yep. And did we tell folks you're meeting with them on Monday? [Lisa Bowman]: I am meeting with them on Monday. Right. [Chair Kathleen James]: To get detailed [Scott Campbell]: detailed feedback, and then we will and then, obviously, we [Chair Kathleen James]: will have you and secretary Riley Deuce come out in right after that. Hopefully, right after that. [Lisa Bowman]: Yeah. [Chair Kathleen James]: Okay. So that was a TBD, and you've got that on your TBD list. Mhmm. Okay. So may I [Lisa Bowman]: Uh-huh. And so one thing I noticed that was missing was from the first dashboard language, the status category because that tells us how valid the dates are, how fluid the dates are. So if they're anything before the execution phase, then we know that they're really subject to change. And that's included in, like it it's it's in the annual report too. It's that exec in execution or in planning or initiation. I think that's important to get the data context. [Scott Campbell]: Is that the the one I [Rick Sagal]: had highlighted? Is that what you're referring to? [Lisa Bowman]: I don't think so. [Scott Campbell]: What page Because This [Rick Sagal]: is page five. Page five. [Lisa Bowman]: Because it could be [Scott Campbell]: let me check that. [Speaker 7 ]: Line eight on page five. Yes. [Scott Campbell]: That's [Lisa Bowman]: that's the start date. Right? Oh, okay. I see what you're saying. That if it's And then if you're populated by a date, then we know it's an execution. [Rick Sagal]: Right. This is the death word. This is not the reporting. [Lisa Bowman]: Yeah. Do [Rick Sagal]: you want that to be in the reporting, the annual? [Lisa Bowman]: No. That it already is in the annual report. [Rick Sagal]: The this one I have highlighted? [Lisa Bowman]: Not that language, but it's the status. That's what they use for their project management phase and Yep. In that report. Okay. So that's there. [Rick Sagal]: So, yeah, I have in this new language I have this is the report language on page two. Okay. Just so everyone can follow along. Line eleven on page two, I do bring over the word status because it was in the current language I have struck. [Lisa Bowman]: K. I mean, I love that Shadi chiming on it, but [Chair Kathleen James]: because I'm I'm satisfied that you pointed out [Lisa Bowman]: if there's a date in the execution phase. It's [Rick Sagal]: Yeah. I wanna make sure it's clear to everybody, though. You know? If if we kinda know, wink wink, what this means, we wanna make sure that everyone knows what status means and what execution date [Scott Campbell]: means and, you know, [Rick Sagal]: maybe part of your discussion on Monday. [Lisa Bowman]: Well, it would be nice if opening on the page where there the dashboard exists, there are kind of instructions of, you know, the description of what the report means, you know, the report means. [Chair Kathleen James]: Okay. [Rick Sagal]: Can I get asked a question about the five hundred thousand? Yeah. Did you want that to affect the annual report and the dashboard or one or the other? [Chair Kathleen James]: Shouldn't it be consistent? I mean, I I don't think we should be asking them to do different [Scott Campbell]: Hello? [Chair Kathleen James]: Different things in different places. [Lisa Bowman]: Well, [Speaker 7 ]: the completed and canceled the the canceled dashboard. Do we wanna a lesser amount or just a summary of all other canceled? I mean, what are you trying to get from this re report is the total amount of the where the immediate budget's going that were gone in the past? [Chair Kathleen James]: Going, gone, and [Speaker 7 ]: Well, the gone the gone for [Chair Kathleen James]: They're about to go. [Speaker 7 ]: If I go, but the the gone portion is for use in projecting the future need is what. And so is there any idea of what the some of these small projects are compared to some of the larger ones that are [Scott Campbell]: over five hundred thousand? Yes. No. [Speaker 7 ]: Are there a bunch of fifty thousand or just three or four Hundred thousands. See, we need to find [Scott Campbell]: out what what ADS thinks is the is the is it is it direct appropriation? Is it is it included in that in that mode? Mode. So there Is it is it a dollar for the phone? And I I don't know how much the Microsoft Office cost cost for the package station. It's something, but it's not a million dollars I owe. So so maybe even even a hundred thousand dollars, I I don't know. It's gotta be something between everybody having a subscription for Microsoft and all this and doing major projects. It's what we're trying to get to. [Lisa Bowman]: I'll have that conversation with them, Greg. Great. And get that feedback because I think that type of purchase isn't included already. And I think part of the reason why ADS included all of those numbers on the existing dashboard was to, you know their their ability to answer questions anticipated questions that they would ask that they can point folks to the dashboard. Yeah. And that if it's a direct appropriation to somebody who cared about it and might wanna see what's going on with that project. [Chair Kathleen James]: Have you set up a time for the meeting? Yeah. It's at two. Two. On Monday. K. We'll we'll finish our walk through, and then I have a whole list of committee organizational topics I wanna talk about that triggers that question. So just remind me to come back. [Rick Sagal]: So that that that is the end of the walkthrough. [Chair Kathleen James]: Okay. However, there [Rick Sagal]: were a couple of questions to think about the we didn't really discuss the the language here. I'll leave that open to the committee before you can go back the language and any suggestions you may have. [Chair Kathleen James]: Well, business goals. [Rick Sagal]: We can start with the top. Yep. [Chair Kathleen James]: Representative Southworth? [Christopher Morrow]: Thank you. I don't wanna derail everything that is being done, but I provided you with a copy of the [Chair Kathleen James]: ABC form? [Christopher Morrow]: Big IT ABC form. Yep. A lot of what we're writing in here is already captured on this form. And I I just don't wanna reinvent the wheel when it's already being done. I know the secretary said that that form because of its format, there was an issue with that, but [Bram Kleppner]: they're already capturing a lot of [Christopher Morrow]: this information. And I just ask if it's maybe more beneficial for us to key in and attach access to this somehow instead of having to go through all of this report building. There's some stuff on the dashboard that I think is very useful. I don't wanna see that go away. But this IT ABC form is just what we're wanting for information, and it lists out business goals. It it lists out, you know, reasons for increases or decreases in the amount. It's all captured there. It's just I I don't wanna waste people's time for creating something that's already available. [Chair Kathleen James]: Same. [Scott Campbell]: One One of the important points that you were making yesterday, Mike, was was that that form is not static. It's not just at the beginning of [Christopher Morrow]: the project, it it continues on and [Scott Campbell]: it updated with with with changes. Right. [Rick Sagal]: And it could be updated more frequently if need be. Yeah. But it's [Christopher Morrow]: the form that they currently use to capture everything that's going on with that project. [Chair Kathleen James]: So what I'm hearing in that is, yay, the good news, a lot of what we're looking for. I mean, DDS has they have all the information that we're looking for. So that seems like good news. And so in in my mind, I feel like we're trying to find a snapshot way for us and the public to ease easily be able to see this at a high level without asking everybody to read, you know, read the IT ABC forms and keep going back to those. Is that that's what I'm feeling. [Lisa Bowman]: And it's just it makes it more accessible just, you know, creating a little mock up report so I could anticipate any problems with the request. I noticed some things within the longitudinal data that I really haven't noticed. So being able to like, I agree with you around, you know, like, the text text, you know, language. It would be great if that was available so you could you could look at this report and the analysis and see the percent increase by year and say, what's going on? And then, you know, get into the details of the report. Mhmm. So I think both are interested. I agree that anything related to tax usually isn't that great in a Mhmm. You know, dashboard. Yeah. Exactly. [Chair Kathleen James]: I feel like and I I could be wrong. I'll be curious to get ADS's perspective on this. But in my mind, stated project business goals refers sort of, I believe, probably to the to the EBC horn. [Scott Campbell]: Yeah. [Chair Kathleen James]: And I'd I'd be curious to get ABS feedback on whether we need to be more explicit or whether we leave it vague, like, are on track to meet stated project business goals as outlined in the ABC form or something. Because I'm with your reps, Salfrathy. This entire exercise is not to create a ton of extra work for folks, but rather to take all the stuff they're actually doing and just get it somewhere that the public and legislators can see it better. [Christopher Morrow]: Alright. There may be some nuances within that form that don't answer people's questions exactly, and and that maybe can be worked on, but it's already being captured. It's already being done, and I just really wanna key in on that. [Speaker 8 ]: Yep. But it's not being done as thoroughly as that for all projects. That's the I think that's part of the issue. When you look at some of the [Christopher Morrow]: ABC forms from. If I could maybe refer that to miss Galvin, she may have a [Speaker 8 ]: little more input on that. [Chair Kathleen James]: Well and, again, the at a glance, for me, the what's really important for me is to see every project in one line. Like the current dashboard, which sounds like can't be in the tool, but, you know, every project gets one line so you can skim it, see where we're at, and then for further information, you refer to the ABC form. I I agree with that. Almost like Pulling high level stuff from that wherever it comes from and so that you can print out an eleven by seventeen thing that [Scott Campbell]: So is that gonna be something that is that the public would need to pay for the city? Is that because they're they're stuck in there that is sort of confidential? [Lisa Bowman]: I will ask that have a discussion on Monday k. On what the maybe they can post them or maybe they can develop them with in mind that they will be posted. Yeah. So they would need to Yeah. [Scott Campbell]: I think it was contractual, you know, requirements or or negotiations or something. [Chair Kathleen James]: Because she said right now, there's static Adobe forms. Right? Right. Yeah. [Scott Campbell]: But they keep adding we're not static about those. They keep adding [Chair Kathleen James]: Right. [Scott Campbell]: Information to the semisubject. [Chair Kathleen James]: Yeah. Semisubject. Semisubject. [Bram Kleppner]: But I think, ideally, to prevent the implication of effort, the dashboard we are hoping to see could draw from wherever that data is housed automatically so it could populate automatically instead of having to redo it. And if there's not information in there that we wanna keep confidential from the public, we could link the line on the dashboard to that for someone who wants to dive into the details. [Scott Campbell]: Yeah. Absolutely. Right. Just we have to call it. [Chair Kathleen James]: Yes. Representative Haley? [Scott Campbell]: Didn't she say that that their form was unworkable? Yes. Yeah. And they're working And and they are working on the green system. Yeah. Those screens? [Chair Kathleen James]: Their current dashboard is my my recollection, their current dashboard is probably not gonna be the tool for us because it's configured to match their very specific project management standards that they follow. And I'm sorry. I can't remember the phrase, but the international PMI. PMI. Yeah. Oops. Sorry. For the record. [Lisa Bowman]: You have Jacqueline Fraser, more instructive, PMI. [Chair Kathleen James]: Yeah. So their dashboard is is configured to help them move through their specific project management [Scott Campbell]: Right. [Chair Kathleen James]: Best practice stuff. And so, one, it's not gonna suit our needs because it sounds like it's suiting their needs okay for their project management process. And it sounds like it's a wonky platform that they may struggle to update or take custom customize. And so in my mind, I just I keep envisioning that their dashboard remains untouched by the legislature because they're using it for a different purpose. And we get and the public gets to see some sort of I know I keep calling it an Excel spreadsheet, but just because in my mind, it's a fairly simple, you know, thing where each project that we're tracking has a line, and there's the columns, and you can see it all in one page. And it's pulling data that they already have from the EBC form, and I'm not sure how the EBC form differs from the epmon reports. I'm sure there's quite a bit of overlap. And if that can you know, if it's an Excel spreadsheet, I know we've all decided that not everybody can easily download and use an Excel spreadsheet, but I'm I'm I'm very interested in offering ADS a path so that we in the public can see what we need all in one place very easily without asking them to completely reinvent the wheel, spend a bunch of money. Because I know ADS is already on the path to they're committed to improving their transparency in their reporting, and I'm just seeing this as an interim interim step that'll get us what we need now. You know? So if it's if it's an ex as far as I'm concerned, if it's a simple Excel for now that links to the reports or links to the ABC forms if those are not confidential. I am okay with that. That was a long monologue. I I probably don't do that. So I feel like yo. I'm sorry. Representative Cibele, to my right. [Laura Sibilia]: I think the thing that is most important for me is when we look at that dashboard, which is really great and helpful, but the the notion that the start date is not necessarily the actual start date Right. That's the biggest challenge for me. And so that's not showing up in there, and and that cloning idea idea really makes a lot of sense to me. But that for me is the biggest kind of piece that I think we should have our eye on in terms of oversight and making sure that we understand. I mean, I mean, there's a bajillion reasons why something could [Chair Kathleen James]: go there. Yeah. Victoria? Yeah. For me, with [Lisa Bowman]: the color coding too, like, understanding that what we're seeing in the dashboard might be for a phase, but we wanna see the color coding for the overall Yes. Project. And and I think we're missing that. [Chair Kathleen James]: We're missing it right now. We would not be missing it The test. In the future. Yeah. Brooke Kuttner? [Bram Kleppner]: Do you imagine that this once this dashboard's up and running, this committee would look at it on a weekly or monthly basis? [Chair Kathleen James]: I think if we fail to do that, we have really wasted people's time. [Bram Kleppner]: Oversight. So that's a yes. [Scott Campbell]: Yeah. Oversight is our job. [Chair Kathleen James]: I guess I would say that's an emphatic yes. So, you know, here we are. I'm sure to the of everybody as a committee, like, hi. We're back. And now we're gonna dive into oversight. And, aren't you happy? And I think the great news is that I think that ADS is happy about that. And I think they're already moving in this direction, and they wanna be partners with us on that, which which is good by me. But I think because there hasn't been a committee that's been really able to spend time on IT oversight, Really, what I feel like is that we we're the contractors who've just arrived on the job, and it's like, we are, you know, really anxious to work on this project, but we don't have our tool belt. And so we I feel like we need to get ourselves tool belt. And then if we fail to use it, we are we should be criticized. Rev Southworth, Rev Sebelia? [Christopher Morrow]: So we as a committee, we would do that. But who's to say committees further on down [Scott Campbell]: the road are gonna actually take [Christopher Morrow]: the in initiative to look at it to review it. And that's I don't wanna put so much into this in creating it that it's just a waste rather than using what's already available and making it so that it's there for use instead of creating something that we're envisioning is gonna be most helpful for us as a committee. But down the road, is it gonna be the same for them? And I just I wanna be very cautious that we're not just creating more and more and more to the point where it's either on the table or we can't manage it properly. [Chair Kathleen James]: Representative Sebelius, did you have a [Lisa Bowman]: comment or question? [Laura Sibilia]: Yeah. Well, I was thinking about [Speaker 7 ]: my rep. [Laura Sibilia]: Oh my god. It's Friday. No worries. And also, reps out. Reps. And I was trying to you know, the question of what would we do with this information. Both of these things together, I I thought it was such a good thing for the governor to do to create the agency of digital services and the work that has been going there and the work, that the current secretary is doing to refine and, improve processes there. Having lived through all of that during the legislative period of time, I would say that the legislature has not really done a great job of their job of oversight. And and that is our job to, you know, make sure that things are going okay. We're the people's representatives. Right? So how are things going? So I think it's a great question. I I I'm thinking about, like, what's something comparable. And the thought that came to mind was appropriations, not that we would be in that level of detail. Right. But, I mean, it that kinda looks across all government. And then I would say, representative South, we're we're maybe creating the standard for the legislature to provide oversight. I mean, we haven't really done this in a consistent way year over year, and we're not matching actually the administration's efforts in terms of improving all of those processes. And so I don't think it's I don't think it's for not. I think I think we're kind of leading the way for and setting the standard for committees that would come after us. I hope I hope this committee will continue to exist going forward. I think it's really important, and that's the view for a number of peers. [Scott Campbell]: Yeah. And you've hit on the fundamental philosophical [Chair Kathleen James]: reality of the legislature, which is that we're here for eighteen weeks, once a year, and then we all are up for reelection and half of us move on, we don't come back. And so we just need to try to do the best work we can while we're here and hope for some continuity. So I unless folks have other thoughts, I feel like we're we are we need to stop until we hear from EDS. Yeah. [Christopher Morrow]: And I just I know that mister Snell actually looked at this. Is there any conflict with PII in that or any confidentiality that you saw? Just had [Rick Sagal]: a quick glance. Probably. But I think that's up to the agency to tell us what they think is, you know, confidential. You know, not knowing what this contract was for or what's valid, but I read it deeply. I I couldn't tell you, but I don't think they'd be ecstatic of just putting those online. Right. You know? Can I [Laura Sibilia]: just what is PI? I [Christopher Morrow]: personally identified all the information. Thank you. Half my portfolio, [Rick Sagal]: I think, is PI. Yeah. [Chair Kathleen James]: Yeah. Yeah. I think. Yeah. [16 seconds of silence] [Christopher Morrow]: When they've already gone up or keep going up for bid? We have two. Rick? Yeah. So I had it's [Rick Sagal]: a good question. The section I deleted [Scott Campbell]: that I added last time had a kind of a [Rick Sagal]: this must be operational by July first of this year. There's an effective date on the act. [Speaker 8 ]: No. He's talking about the projects. [Rick Sagal]: Oh, when the I'm [Christopher Morrow]: talking about the specific projects. Specific projects or [Rick Sagal]: current projects or the completed projects? Well, how how [Speaker 8 ]: do you define start date? Like, is it at the Object. The scoping phase, or is it at the the implementation phase? Is that is [Bram Kleppner]: that what you're asking? Yeah. It is. Yep. I think Lisa has it. [Lisa Bowman]: I think I can help. I think with the way we structure the dashboard, it notes when the project initiation starts. So the first pivot of the project, and then the execution is when the real project work starts. Okay. And my point, wanting to know when that was is because that's when you know the dates really are should be burned and the caulk should be burned versus the earlier stages. So it does capture both. [Scott Campbell]: So the first your initiation might be planning stage, and that is the I mean, execution date might be the date of the contract. [Bram Kleppner]: So And presume sorry. Presumably, there are a bunch of projects that start the planning stage and never get to execution. [Lisa Bowman]: I've had many of those. Yeah. [Bram Kleppner]: I mean, I'd imagine someone says, hey. You know, we need this and say, yeah. That sounds like a good idea. Then they dig into it and say, oh, we don't need that actually or it's impossible or some other system already does it or, like, whatever the reason. Yeah. [Rick Sagal]: Then we might need to include the word planning and the definition of current. Okay. Because it is a project that is in the planning phase that active? Is that an active project? I would [Lisa Bowman]: According to ADS, it is, and there are many in the annual report that are at that stage. And and going through them year after year like I did when I was mocking things up, you really see how things kind of come and go, projects drop, and then they might reappear two years later. And so I I think we I think that captures that. [Scott Campbell]: Yeah. In that planning stage, where does the money come for that? Is that just out of their admin budget? I [Chair Kathleen James]: I had that two questions. Okay. [Lisa Bowman]: Well, I think their proposed budget would have it come from a source. Right now, they're they if ADS is involved in the planning, they fill out their services. Right? Their staff, they do billbacks. [Scott Campbell]: It shows the the budget of the agency that is requiring them for. [Chair Kathleen James]: Yeah. I wondered that because in the bill. [Scott Campbell]: I mean, they could they could have a million dollars in in the even though ATS is telling them back, they could have a million dollar just envisioning what this new program could be before we even start going out of the project. [Chair Kathleen James]: That roller coaster graphic we saw that you the loop deloop thing, I had the same question as you, Brett Bailey, because my my assumption anyway is that the the the big bucks appropriations that, you know, we see come in once they sign that contract. Like, once you get through those first two arrows and you start going like this and I had the a similar question that I I didn't ask about. Where's the budget money coming from those first two arrows? [Lisa Bowman]: It can be anything. For instance, IEE on that project, they have an appropriation for full system way back. I don't I think it was around twenty twelve, but they they're still using that to do some of their work now. So it it could be from direct appropriations that were just really old or discretionary funds that they have available. It could be anything. [Rick Sagal]: I have one more comment. [Chair Kathleen James]: Yeah. Go ahead. [Rick Sagal]: Something to think about over the weekend is, again, my world of definitions, the word dashboard. You all have maybe varying ideas of what it looks like. It could be a spreadsheet. It could be a a web table. You might also do some research on what other agencies do when it comes to reporting. Some of them have these web tables that are basically online spreadsheets that are printable. You can print them in a nice, you know, PDF format. So if you kinda have this idea of what you want this dashboard to look like, it could be more prescriptive. And the statute can say, this may include, you know, a web table, something something something. Because the word dashboard, again, is not totally it's not defined. So it could be anything. I agree. Just something about [Lisa Bowman]: And I guess that's something I would like to ask Adiad about because I don't need to do the technology. No. Definitely not. And I'll I do have concern about the word dashboard, but I thought I'd I'd address that when I talk to AdiS on that too [Chair Kathleen James]: on what they think. Great. So next steps for this bill, [Scott Campbell]: we absolutely need feedback [Chair Kathleen James]: from EDS so we're not blundering down a an alley. And [Scott Campbell]: so I we will need, you know, kind of informal feedback, and then we, obviously, [Chair Kathleen James]: will need to ask them to come in to testify. And my thought is still that we're gonna get this that we're gonna vote on this bill and and try to get it to the floor before crossover. So and if because if we if this bill doesn't go to the floor before crossover, then we really have lost. We've missed our moment with this bill. So my question is, who wants to report it on the floor? [Scott Campbell]: You mean? [Chair Kathleen James]: I well, I I am. I wanted to give you first dibs. Do you wanna report this bill on the floor? [Scott Campbell]: I'd be happy to whichever. [Chair Kathleen James]: Okay. Sure. Because you [Rick Sagal]: for Laura. [Chair Kathleen James]: You if we get out one twenty five, that's your bill. Yeah. The reason I ask is that I think it's important that the floor or the bill recorder attend the meeting with you on Monday. Would you be available? Because I I feel like we we can't be work off? We shouldn't be outsourcing our work too much here. [Lisa Bowman]: So I'm in Teams meeting right now. You know, she won't walk over. [Scott Campbell]: Oh, I won't be here on Monday. [Lisa Bowman]: Oh, so you're good with that? I mean, [Scott Campbell]: I won't be in in building a [Lisa Bowman]: So so you're good with [Laura Sibilia]: the Teams meeting then? [Scott Campbell]: I'm good with the Teams meeting. Okay. Yeah. Let's perhaps see what else I'm doing. [Chair Kathleen James]: So I Two o'clock. And then we'll talk a little bit more about minutes. Bill reporting and all kinds of stuff. But [Scott Campbell]: voting. Voting. Two cents. I mean, one thirty two cents. Click. Oh, you need to talk. [Chair Kathleen James]: Can you get it from [Lisa Bowman]: the so what? Yeah. I'll make sure I have [Rick Sagal]: You're the clerk. The Yeah. Okay. Regulations. [Chair Kathleen James]: So [Scott Campbell]: Sure, I guess. [Chair Kathleen James]: So here's here's what I'm seeing is the broad arc of this bill, and you guys can correct me if if I'm wrong. But so if representative Campbell is willing to be the bill reporter, and for our new folks, it seems obvious, I'm sure, but that means that representative Campbell will report the bill on the floor. So he will stand up. He will give his bill report. We have from the clerk's office available to all of us a a guide to how you report a bill. And I will make sure that everybody has a copy of that because it's just really instructive. There's definitely a way it goes. So what I see is our next steps are Ricardo, are you gonna have a next a next draft here, or are we just sort of holding? [Scott Campbell]: Well, I think, Lisa, if you wanna invite me to that meeting, that might be helpful just so I can listen at least [Rick Sagal]: Okay. And be able to make changes or be prepared to make changes the following is it Tuesday? I'm not sure when I'm back in here. [Chair Kathleen James]: Jeff, when is our next markup, this committee discussion on this bill? [Scott Campbell]: Looks like she's at one. [Bram Kleppner]: Yep. She's at one. [Chair Kathleen James]: Okay. So that should be that's very timely because we'll be able to hear back from folks about how how the conversation went on Monday. And then we definitely need to invite secretary Riley Hughes in to come and give her formal, you know, for formal response to the bill and how language is shaping up. And I I think we have right now, next week's agenda is a little bit blocky. It's got a lot of nebulous times that are just kind of labeled committee discussion and Marco. Yeah. Thirty minutes. If things are moving along, we could we could vote this out next week. I don't think we wanna bring it to the floor before town meeting this week. So for example, we could vote it out next this just I'm making this up, but we could vote it out next Friday. [Scott Campbell]: Mhmm. [Chair Kathleen James]: Then rep Campbell would have all town meeting week to repairs prepare his floor report. [Scott Campbell]: Just what just what I wanna do in the time. [Chair Kathleen James]: Well, we we yeah. Yeah. We we'd have a bit of time. Yeah. And then it would be on notice Tuesday. This is where I get Yes. Hello, clerk. Yeah. It would be on notice Tuesday and on the floor on Wednesday. [Rick Sagal]: Per second reading. [Chair Kathleen James]: Yeah. For yeah. For second reading. So Tuesday would be on the notice calendar. Wednesday, we would actually be on the floor for second reading, and you guys have already noticed that's when that's more tends to be more of the big the big presentation. If there's any debate, conversation, we vote. And then Thursday would be third reading, which often is just, hopefully, just yep. And we send it over to the senate. [Speaker 7 ]: So so if somebody, outside this committee wants to speak about it and make an amendment, they do that at the second reading. [Chair Kathleen James]: They can also do it at third reading. It's it more typically happens at second reading. Okay. [Speaker 7 ]: No. I guess the [Chair Kathleen James]: Yeah. I know. Yeah. And [Rick Sagal]: they would typically bring the amendment to the committee for a straw poll vote [Speaker 7 ]: on On Tuesday before? Or [Rick Sagal]: Yes. There there'd be hopefully enough notice where the and the speaker might require that [Speaker 7 ]: Like, you know that. [Chair Kathleen James]: No. It's No. It's okay. It's okay. So, like, yeah, once the bill once the bill is sort of out there, you know, on the notice calendar, that's when other members who are not in our committee often will read it and say, I have a question about this or that. Typically, to to be honest, they will just come to someone on the committee and say, I have a question about this. What's that? What do you think about this? You know, what do you think about that? Which then then they don't wanna they they don't feel that they need to bring an amendment. They're they're good. They've had their questions answered. Sometimes they really have a thing and, you know [Speaker 7 ]: This is not a controversial bill. This is this is [Laura Sibilia]: I I don't Not not that I would. [Chair Kathleen James]: I don't think it is. I don't [Bram Kleppner]: I don't think about. [Speaker 7 ]: To me, it's not. So Right. So I it's not Right. It's not like education bill or [Chair Kathleen James]: Right. So or private. So that's there. One one thought is that we we have next week to work on this, but but we're getting down to the wire here. I I don't wanna vote it out. I I don't think we should try to bring it to the floor next week. I think that's pushing it. But we should know that Friday would be great timing, And Tuesday, I am not here. So we actually can't vote on it on Tuesday. So it's either Friday or Wednesday after town meeting break, in which case it would be on the notice count. It'd be on the floor. Right? [Laura Sibilia]: Mhmm. Perfect. Friday sounds like a great goal. And process vote [Lisa Bowman]: it out next Friday? Yeah. And just [Laura Sibilia]: to be continuing, you know, ADS Mhmm. Back and forth that there may Yeah. We wanna allow time for letting it percolate a minute. [Chair Kathleen James]: So yeah. [Christopher Morrow]: Instead of saying, can we're gonna vote [Scott Campbell]: it out, can we say we'll vote on it? [Chair Kathleen James]: Yes. We can take that. We can take yes. Sorry about that. I'm making assumptions. I think, Bill. So, actually, we're live right now. This is actually a great time for people to weigh in because, you know, this language may change, but the broad outlines of the bill are here. And, it's actually, it's always good for folks to have a chance to raise their hand and say, I'm I'm not gonna vote for this, you know, or I'm not on board yet, or I'm on board if x, y, or z. We we talk about those things openly here in our committee family. So if yeah. [Laura Sibilia]: Would you like some feedback? Sure. [Chair Kathleen James]: I mean, I'm I am voting [Laura Sibilia]: for this bill. Yes. I intend to vote for this bill [Lisa Bowman]: from what I could [Laura Sibilia]: Mhmm. That we are able to address that, you know, when does it start situation. And I think we can. I think that the secretary has indicated. And and I think it's a good thing that we that we are I like yeah. So I intend to vote for it provided we [Scott Campbell]: can get that at the end of the business. Brett Campbell? Yeah. I I I think this is a really important thing that we that we get a handle on the enormous amount of money we spend on IT as as a committee, but also providing that information to the public and kind of parent parent's in the public. I feel like it's really important for me. I'm very hopeful that we're gonna get to a place where we have some meaning of the minds with the with the with the folks at ADS and with all of us in this room, and we can vote it out unanimously. And it'll be something that is good you know, it is a is a good improvement in in effective government. I hope to support. Rafael? I'm still [Speaker 7 ]: thinking about it. [Scott Campbell]: K. Thank you. [Chair Kathleen James]: Is there anything this is a good time to if you have a specific thought on, I'd like to see this or these are the questions I need answered, definitely be thinking about that. Because by the time a week from now rolls around, I I would love to see this leave our committee unanimously. So now is the time to think I'm stuck on this. I'm stuck on that. You know, what about this or that? And, you know, a unanimous vote is my hope. That's my hope, obviously. Kim, I don't control that. Rev. Mark? [Speaker 8 ]: I think it's a good first step. I'm thinking about this kind of as an iterative process and kind of leaning into the secretary's approach of going back and forth and her willingness to share information. And so I'm not I think we need some oversight. If they already have the information, then this isn't requiring them, in my mind, to recreate it. It's just we need to see it. Right? So it's not like making them do a whole new thing that they haven't done before. It's as long as the information's there for us to see, then that's the important part. And so I'm supportive of this. [Christopher Morrow]: I would like to see what ADS has to say K. Because that's a very important piece to me. I don't wanna recreate the wheel. I did not want to pull up on burdensome costs and time on an agency when they have the information. I support the oversight because I think that's important. But at the same time, I think we need need to make this as simple thing to comprehend as we can and make it so that future committees look at it and go What is this? What is this? Simple to me is good as long as simple equals direct information that all can understand. Provided that's part of it, I would support the bill. [Speaker 7 ]: Right. I'm concerned about the redundancy and the cost, and we still haven't talked. We probably have to wait from ADS of what their personnel cost. Are they gonna how big a deal is this gonna be for them? Is it gonna add staff? Is it gonna add additional cost? And the other concern when I go back to town meeting day is what hasn't come off the table here. [Scott Campbell]: But then [Speaker 7 ]: I don't take my track every week to the transfer station, but when I do, I get spoken to what's going on up here. So that doesn't mean an abstention because of lack of other work at this point. [Scott Campbell]: K. [Lisa Bowman]: I'm in favor of this bill. I like others, I'm I'm eager to hear what BDS has to say and to refine it in the best way. But it seems like a great start. Certainly learned a lot already. Yeah. [Bram Kleppner]: I share the concerns and voice by representative and then self worth about creating extra work. I also share the hope, which I voiced earlier, that an agency of digital services can figure out how to automate a lot of this. So there's not a lot of human extra work involved in pulling data they have into a format that that we want. And, you know, our discussions about continuity also, we can cut both ways. We we have said feels like we have a secretary of ADS now who's very open and helpful and supportive, and that might change. We also have a committee now that, in general, feels like we'd like to have this as a tool to fulfill our oversight obligations, but the makeup and the leadership of this committee may change. But all in all, I think we do our work right for what reps outwards that we create something that is simple. And I think your goal as well, I wanna be able to see it at a glance. I wanna be able to see what's going. If we do that work well, it will be a useful tool for whoever the next version of this committee is. And if we can only you know, absent being able to see into the future, we have to assume goodwill and diligence on the part of our successors that they're gonna wanna fulfill their obligations. And if we provide if we create a tool that works really well for us, it should work well for them as well. So with the the various caveats, I am also favor of this bill. [Chair Kathleen James]: Are you saying here when it's were we gonna leave when it's due every year? Did we put in there when it's due every year? [Rick Sagal]: The report? Yeah. Okay. [Chair Kathleen James]: Is that representative Kletner's and representative Southworth's comments made me think, I hear strong consensus that we wanna see the information, and we don't wanna create a bunch of time and money for ADS. So and we wanna make sure it's people you you know, future committees use it. And so I am now wondering when when ADS submits its its annual report. Is it a January fifteenth date? [Rick Sagal]: I am looking for this. Okay. It's not it calls into this the governor's annual budget request, but I don't think that there is a date that [Chair Kathleen James]: Oh oh, I see. Current with the governor's annual budget request. Alright. That's it. That's [Rick Sagal]: Yeah. It's not a specific date there. But [Chair Kathleen James]: That's okay. That gets at what I was getting at, which was the trigger, you know, that we've that we've tried to build in as a legislature is that these reports are sent to the committee of jurisdiction on such and such a date every year. And we can't make future committees look at it, but [Speaker 7 ]: They have to get the report. They have to accept it. They don't have to read it. [Scott Campbell]: They don't even have to accept it. No. As long as they have to They have to [Chair Kathleen James]: get it. [Speaker 7 ]: All the time. It's in statute. [Chair Kathleen James]: Yeah. It says that it shall be submitted. [Rick Sagal]: Oh. And if I make a point here, some of these reporting has the reports go to specific committees. Right now, this legislation just says shall submit to the general assembly. Would be the worst idea to specify this committee. [Chair Kathleen James]: Let's add that. Let's get ourselves in there. [Scott Campbell]: Okay. K. [Bram Kleppner]: And this is a [Speaker 9 ]: this is this report, she added this down January twenty fifth. [Chair Kathleen James]: So that is concurrent with the governor's annual budget request. [Scott Campbell]: Oh, okay. Good. [Chair Kathleen James]: Because that was when Gov came in. And third week in January is typically when the governor comes in and gives his budget. [Scott Campbell]: But this isn't a separate you want this bill in here. Is that right? Or [Chair Kathleen James]: I I'm imagining a similar timing. Yeah. Mhmm. [Lisa Bowman]: Yeah. [Scott Campbell]: I wanna come back to wanted to kick ourselves a little bit about about this being an iterative process and maybe I'm trying to think of a way to to include that concept in here because I think we we want it to be simple. We want it to be understandable, and that's really hard. So I think I think that if they if when you look at other in other realms, people trying to create something that is simple to look at and and and get lean, important information from, it it go through several iterations while people try to figure out how to do that, how to present that information. Okay. He's not comprehensible. Right? So I guess I'm trying to think of a way to include the concept of the iterations. Iterativeness, you know, the word is here. May maybe it's just adding something like we we we specify a lot of a lot of data points, and maybe we add at the end I don't know. Any end to end to end and other information that deemed important, sorry, to agency or something like that. I was secretary. I I'm I'm trying to get at some at at some way to improve that concept. Inertiveness, let's say, interest in that and then if anybody has any better idea, that would be great. Right? Maybe it sounds terrific. Right? Yeah. [Chair Kathleen James]: So I feel for your plan. Okay. And let's all stay in touch. You know, we'll continue to talk about the bill over next week so that we're all staying in touch about how how everybody's feeling about the bill. [Rick Sagal]: Two more things on that. I'll probably also add the senate committee, which I imagine is the institutions. [Chair Kathleen James]: Yeah. And Institutions. IT, [Rick Sagal]: I believe, is there. [Chair Kathleen James]: I can't remember their title. [Scott Campbell]: Yeah. It's just institution. Oh, maybe they do have another I [Rick Sagal]: think, yeah, they just changed it. Yeah. This this session. Yeah. So I have that. Usually, you have to send an in house counterpart in the reporting. Okay. And secondly, I probably won't have a draft on Tuesday since I'll be wanted to hear what the committee wants to do. Great. I'll have have listened, hopefully, to the meeting on Monday, and I'll be here ready to convert what you all decide into language k. Maybe for the following Wednesday or Thursday. Next week's gonna get crazy. Just my schedule [Chair Kathleen James]: Well, let's book you now then. Before you go, please Sure. Let's get let's get you blocked in. [Rick Sagal]: So I may just need to be flexible, just so you know. You can block me, but there's gonna be several people pulling me in different directions. K. There'll be time to do it. Just putting that out there that it may need to be a little flexible. [Chair Kathleen James]: Okay. And we right now, our agenda is right now, our agenda is a little nebulous. We just have big blocks that are sort of, like, committee discussion. Yeah. [Rick Sagal]: And I'll communicate with Jack and you on that. [Scott Campbell]: Okay. That's it. [Chair Kathleen James]: Alrighty. We can Rick, thank you so

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