SmartTranscript of House Education - 2025-04-24 - 10:00 AM

[Beth Quimby]: And you're live. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Welcome to House Education on, April twenty fourth twenty twenty five. The committee is continuing its discussion of h fifty four, which is a phone free schools bill. We are sort of at the, okay, what do we wanna do with this bill in front of us stage in terms of altering it, changing it, asking questions, that sort of thing. We've all had a chance to look at other policies, other states, policies in Vermont schools. Maybe what we would open it up for to begin with is just do a quick little round table and get kinda get a list of people's sort of questions and concerns with what's in front of us. Or something, Jeff, you wanna lead us on? [Chris Taylor]: I can start. I I still have not been concerned about the word permitted, but I see. Rep arsenal sent some some wording that that might as I dive deeper into it, I might take care of that. And I am, at this point, in favor of still trying to keep some social media language in there. If we can tweak it directly. [Leanne Harple]: Brett Wong? I would I'm, as folks know, supportive of this, and still have some questions about how I I I want I would like to see bell to bell because I think that's the most effective method here. And still have some questions about how to store, you know, how how we would put that into a law and probably would prefer to allow school districts to I'm very mindful of the burden of the expense of storage, and that concerns me to some degree. But that's I'm in favor. Move it. [Jay Nichols]: K. So I the first two I had were the same as rep Taylor, getting rid of the word permitted, perhaps, divine social media in a way that's gonna work. Off campus use exceptions. I don't know if we need the language in there. You know, [Chair Peter Conlon]: if you're [Jay Nichols]: on an overnight field trip or any field trip, there might be emergency situations. As far as storage, it's not even the expense necessarily. It's the time. Is it is it gonna be and we'll not be burdensome on a school, like, having to how much time does it take to collect all these funds at the start of the day and at the end of the day that comes out of academic time? Again, maybe if it's flexible for the school, that's not an issue. [Casey Toof]: Go ahead, Casey. [Leanne Harple]: I'm in full favor of a Bell to Bell van. I'm with Brett Long, and I think this is something that is really important with you know, especially having two kids that are in the school system that are probably gonna be begging for a phone in the next couple of years. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yep. [Leanne Harple]: With that said, there has been something brought to my attention with the someone might have dual enrollment with, like, CCV Oh, yeah. Who need the cell phones for two factor or what do they call that? [Chair Peter Conlon]: The two factor two factor. [Leanne Harple]: Conversation. Conversation. So that would be something to to I'd want to look into. Maybe look at exceptions or exceptions or whatever that would for the benefit of the student that not when they [Chair Peter Conlon]: can. Right. [Kate McCann]: Yeah. I am in favor of it. I think that probably if we don't have enough money for the cases that can be solved innovatively. I do think that we just need to get a little bit better of a definition for permitted electronic devices and what social media we're actually trying to ban because it's very generalized. And the other thing that I think is that it is a policy that whichever year goes into effect should go into effect at the beginning of the year. [Emily Long]: Yeah. I absolutely agree. With all of that, I'm a hundred percent in favor of bell to bell. I think that schools people at schools are smart. They'll figure out storage in several locations if they need to. They'll come up with systems because that's what they have to do. Mhmm. Yeah. But that's maybe figuring out that language. And I think also that idea of doing if you're on a field trip and how you wanna [Chair Peter Conlon]: handle that, that there should [Emily Long]: be some there should be some latitude for teachers to decide on their own, you know, what it's gonna be once they're off campus. [Jay Nichols]: Yeah. I don't think I have [Beth Quimby]: anything you'd add. I agree with Chris that I was, yeah, wondering about the word permitting students' use of social media and with the folks who said, yeah, low cost storage solutions would be, I think, important. [Chair Peter Conlon]: I see school workshops having a big [Jana Brown]: There you go. Yes. [Beth Quimby]: There you go. Phone cubby. [Chair Peter Conlon]: There you go. [Jay Nichols]: Unsecured. Yeah. Yeah. [Beth Quimby]: So they [Jay Nichols]: don't stow it. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. I I keep thinking about the logistics of storage and all that, and then I also type in. Like, we don't get involved. [Jana Brown]: Mm-mm. Yeah. [Emily Long]: No. Yeah. We can't. Some smart people that figured out. [Jana Brown]: Right. They're [Chair Peter Conlon]: all they're all trying out different things right now. Like, if this were to take effect to Leanne's point in July first twenty twenty six, probably by that time, everybody will have their own system anyway. Yeah. You know, I think we'll probably talk a fair bit about today is exceptions. Mhmm. I got the same email as as Casey about Dual. Dual enrollment and the need to have those tools. [Leanne Harple]: CTE centers often use after kids use [Chair Peter Conlon]: cell phones to, [Jay Nichols]: you [Chair Peter Conlon]: know, do do all the tech work that they do because that's the way that's the tool that's used in the field. Right. Right. I don't know if adult ed fits in here somewhere. But then, you know, building in Latitude for anything off you like this. Yeah. Interesting. I don't know if you all noticed looking through other states, they also make exceptions for in times of emergencies. Yeah. [Jay Nichols]: I don't [Emily Long]: know if you noticed that or things. Strange. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. Mhmm. But I don't know if that's like you know? Great. It it obviously, there's, like, a a live shooter on your campus. Nobody's gonna be going to the office for the get phone. Mhmm. Of course. Like, what if it's if there's, like, you know, a a bigger, like, fire is headed towards your school. Yeah. Or the weather or something. So I can't help it. Yeah. Yeah. They all put that in for a reason, and maybe we need to get that a little more [Jay Nichols]: thought. Maybe places like a tornado or something. Tornadoes. Tornado warnings. Tornado warnings. [Chair Peter Conlon]: A lot of things. Yeah. [Jay Nichols]: But we're doing this for Vermont. Right. [Jana Brown]: That's true. [Jay Nichols]: We're not Well, we do have we do [Leanne Harple]: have weather events. [Kate McCann]: But we also Yeah. As faculty and staff are trained and receive training every year to go through these emergencies, I [Jay Nichols]: don't think we necessarily need to count on the kids themselves to make the decisions about when they need their phone and what to do. [Kate McCann]: Like, we will be reaching out to parents. We will be evacuating them on the buses. [Jana Brown]: We've gone through these trainings. [Jay Nichols]: Yeah. Yeah. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. I but maybe it's a little loud discretion. Yeah. Like, if the school determines there's an emergency where students should have their phones. [Leanne Harple]: That call. It would [Leanne Harple]: be great to have some flexibility built into legislation that allows decisions to be made at a local level because a flood could be a situation that only impacts one school district or even one school. [Jay Nichols]: Mhmm. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Is that Go ahead. [Kate McCann]: Maybe this is a question for Beth. I mean, [Jay Nichols]: can we put in a sentence that [Kate McCann]: says almost exactly what Peter says? Like, in the case of an emergency, schools will have the discretion to give students their phones. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Go ahead. [Jay Nichols]: Is that illegal? Okay. Then Wife [Jana Brown]: What would I say if [Chris Taylor]: I was That's the [Jay Nichols]: that's the question. Policy decision, and you can do whatever you want. Okay. [Emily Long]: So, yeah, we can do that. [Kate McCann]: I just didn't what I guess what I was getting is there was a specific way you have [Beth Quimby]: to word that. Yeah. Yeah. [Chair Peter Conlon]: That's gonna be up to us to work with our city council. Yeah. Figure that out. Why don't we maybe talk about accept so I'd say two topics we can kinda tackle now is exceptions. Mhmm. And, also, do we want how are people feeling? But we could not get into social media at all and just say pack them up bell to bell to bell. [Emily Long]: Right. So the two the two provisions were, I think, in here as I read it or at least as it was explained. So that the school should not be using any social media to communicate with the students. Like, a coach couldn't be saying, oh, check your Instagram because I'll be notifying you about x y z. Right? So there's that. And was there also something or did I dream this, or did somebody say this, like, maybe any school issued device, Chromebook, iPad cannot access social media? [Beth Quimby]: Sorry. Was [Emily Long]: that in here that I dreamed that they're already true today? Must be. [Jay Nichols]: Most of them seem blocked. At least once, yeah. But I think So [Chair Peter Conlon]: I think [Emily Long]: that's a good thing, I guess, [Chair Peter Conlon]: is what [Emily Long]: I'm saying. Yeah. I mean, if we're gonna have them phone free, then that's a huge part of it. Right? [Chris Taylor]: Is it? [Leanne Harple]: Is it Hold on. I'm I'm about [Chris Taylor]: the first part you talked about. [Casey Toof]: I have [Chris Taylor]: to go back and and read it again, and, obviously, we're all Yeah. [Jay Nichols]: Yeah. Yeah. [Emily Long]: Yeah. Is it is [Chair Peter Conlon]: it just, you know, requiring the student to have to use social media. Right? [Chris Taylor]: So It's not the reason the requirements on on the [Emily Long]: I guess I was feeling like, you know, I know it. In our school, there were a couple of teams. They just had their own Instagram page and so they you know, and it was just run by the students. Yeah. Right? But I think that at least the intention here was that that no school coach, teacher, or anything should be having an instant oh, like an Instagram page or Facebook page specifically to contact students. But, actually, what Leanne said was also important. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Because that would be requiring a student to have that account to receive that content? Exactly. Right. [Emily Long]: Exactly. And but what you said about putting in as an exception about educational blogs should be an exception, where kids are have to load up assignments and, you know, critique other people's assignments, that sort of thing. [Kate McCann]: Well, I'm looking at the definition of social media right now, which is on page five. Yeah. And it's just, like, so vague. It basically says anything that you have to create a profile for, and then you can create content and others can view your content. Like, there are [Jay Nichols]: so many reasons we would still want kids to be able to do that in school. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Mhmm. Mhmm. [Chris Taylor]: Yep. [Leanne Harple]: We also talked about the apps that schools may wanna Yes. You know, engage in, connect with their parents. Yep. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Parent ParentSquare. [Leanne Harple]: Parent Square. [Chair Peter Conlon]: It's it's really about how we define social media. Correct. All the So [Leanne Harple]: we need to work with The the initial [Chris Taylor]: In the email rep arsenal sent, she references back to s sixty nine major corporate design code. They have a [Jay Nichols]: Yeah. [Chris Taylor]: A different social media platform definition. Would you read that aloud? No. I can, actually. Yeah. Social media platform means a public or semi public Internet based service or application that is primarily intended to connect and allow a user to socially interact within such service or application and enables a user to construct a public or semi public profile for the purpose of signing into and using such service or application, populate a public list of other users with whom the user shares a social connection within such service or application, or create or post content that is viewable by other users, including content on message boards and in chat rooms, and that presents the user with content generated by other users. [Chair Peter Conlon]: That's a [Emily Long]: lot of words. That is. I'm [Kate McCann]: still not totally sure why that's bad. Like, that's not always bad. What's bad is, like, spending hours on Facebook or because no [Jay Nichols]: one uses Twitter except we'll be [Chair Peter Conlon]: able to I think here's here's the issue is that if a coach says, oh, we're we're gonna use Facebook as our sort of official communication tool [Leanne Harple]: And you're forcing [Chair Peter Conlon]: me to parent is like, my kid is not going to be on social media Period. There's a conflict. Yeah. I wonder if we couldn't solve this whole thing by essentially saying, you know, schools will not use social media programs, applications, whatever the right word is, for direct communicate official, we call it, official communication mission students except on communication tools approved by the school district. So in other words, give them the Flexible. Latitude Yeah. To pick what it is. Trust them to not pick Facebook. Yes. [Emily Long]: Right. Because then parents wouldn't say, hey. Woah. My kid's not going on there. [Chris Taylor]: So I have a pretty defined definition of social media. Right? [Kate McCann]: No. Because with the [Chair Peter Conlon]: school's discretion, they can say, hey. We are using [Kate McCann]: this content creation. Content creation site, and there are other high schools using this, and you might meet some other high schoolers. And, like, there [Beth Quimby]: are reasons to do that. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Oh, I know. Well, no. No. I'm talking about I I I think it's really about direct communication with students and students' direct communication with with teachers and staff. [Jay Nichols]: I like [Kate McCann]: the way you disordered it with the school's discretion because [Jay Nichols]: I think that solves the problem. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. But that but that doesn't I'm only talking about direct communication. They're you're and you're talking about, like, allowing [Chris Taylor]: them to go on blogs [Chair Peter Conlon]: and things like that Mhmm. Which is a different matter, [Emily Long]: I believe, in this too. [Chris Taylor]: We can't obviously start naming different social media a lot more. No. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. Like, if they change [Chris Taylor]: so quickly and adapt [Emily Long]: and Yeah. [Kate McCann]: We don't know them all either. [Beth Quimby]: Right. Right. [Jay Nichols]: There's about a hundred, I [Kate McCann]: think, only teenagers in all about. [Leanne Harple]: I mean, I'm really curious about again, we've heard this before, but what schools are doing today with social media and what they're allowing or not. I mean, some schools just block it. I look over my shoulder here, but just block the ability to get on to certain social media platforms during the school day. But one of the things I wanted to bring up was bell to bell and what does that actually mean. Because when we're talking about field trips, you know, they often go beyond bell. We're only talking I've only been talking about bell to bell. Right. You know, you turn in your phone when you come to school and you pick it up when you leave. And that's when the school gets out, which means you have it for sports for sporting events and stuff afterward? And are is everyone comfortable with what bell to bell actually means? I just wanna make sure we all I I know what I interpret it, but that may not be what [Jay Nichols]: we mean. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Well, we understand. We're not gonna solve the problem. We're we're we're finding students with a six hour break in their lives. [Leanne Harple]: That's exactly what I'm trying to say. That my my interpretation of bell to bell is literally [Chair Peter Conlon]: At school. At school. [Jay Nichols]: Right. And that's the difference for me is bell to bell does include times off campus as well in my teaching experience. You know, you it's during the school day, but you've taken the kids off campus to walk up to Crystal Lake for the day, or you've gotten on a bus and gone to the Fairbanks Museum for the day and you're back by the end. You know? So the field trips that happened during the Bell to Bell time as well as the longer ones. So [Chair Peter Conlon]: I mean, we can very simply say that, you know [Jay Nichols]: I believe that the schools [Chair Peter Conlon]: can information. Schools can decide whether you know, we'll make it this is focused on in the building. [Emily Long]: Yeah. Yes. Mhmm. [Chair Peter Conlon]: And anything outside the building can be at the discretion of the Yes. Of the school. Interesting. [Jay Nichols]: You know? Lost kid. Yeah. It's happened to me. [Leanne Harple]: Yeah. But lost kid. I would say I've been I've been a coach. I coached at a varsity level. I've coached at seven and eight and all the way up through. If I would have seen a cell phone, that's bad for the kids. Like, I think the the adults that are in charge of these after school programs in the school, I think it it makes it easier for us to say, Dan, it helps teachers out, helps with the distraction in school. And then after, I think, your extracurricular, you're there. I think kids are probably really engaged in that Mhmm. Because they I don't wanna say they don't wanna be in the classroom, but they really wanna be doing their extracurricular thing. And I think coaches have a really good way of or not just coaches, but people, like, in their stuff, getting their students stay engaged and not worry about that stuff. Absolutely. I would say the bell to bell works for me. Mhmm. But I do get, like, the stairs out. [Jay Nichols]: It's it's the bus. You know? And my school policy, you couldn't have your phone out on the bus. Yeah. Our policy was when we see it, we take it. You know? On the bus ride, it's in your backpack. Mhmm. You don't you weren't allowed to have your phones in sight. [Chair Peter Conlon]: This is a minimum. This Yeah. Schools can be [Jay Nichols]: Yeah. Yeah. They can [Chris Taylor]: go wherever they [Kate McCann]: want. Discretion. Yep. [Emily Long]: Yeah. [Jay Nichols]: I'm happy with that. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. I mean, I I love to keep my buses too. Absolutely. Yeah. Although, it's probably great for bus drivers. Very mellow bus ride. It's good to put you on their phone and not fighting [Emily Long]: Alright, kids. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Lift your phones. [Beth Quimby]: You don't want bus drivers [Kate McCann]: to have to, like, do a bunch [Beth Quimby]: of enforcement either. That's a real nightmare. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Alright. So, Beth, I hope you're capturing the [Leanne Harple]: SSC. [Chair Peter Conlon]: What's going on here. So That goes around. In terms of building exceptions, I would say something that talks about when engaged in a dual enrollment course, whether on campus or off, if a cell phone is needed to access? Or is there [Jana Brown]: to factor off on the case. Do you wanna be specific sorry. I'm helping James office of legislative chancellor. You don't wanna be specific to that? [Jay Nichols]: Just Ask to [Chair Peter Conlon]: access their their Google. Yeah. [Chris Taylor]: Yeah. Okay. And they're [Leanne Harple]: and they're covered CTEs. [Chair Peter Conlon]: And then and are are people comfortable making an exception for CTE courses where required. Where? Where? Well, no one should ever require somebody to bring in a [Leanne Harple]: tool from home. That's right. Right. [Chair Peter Conlon]: But but where it is integral to the Educational program or school Now I get worried because somebody was, you know, you know, math teacher saying, listen. That was These are these are the graphic calculators now. [Jay Nichols]: That was gonna be my point, only mainly for someone who's not in the room now as mentioned. Is it academically appropriate in math classes? Used more than ever in math classes, statistics classes, [Emily Long]: Mhmm. Capital classes, etcetera. Right. But [Beth Quimby]: So are you either the exemption [Jay Nichols]: to CTE or you also an exemption. Or, you know, are you going down a slippery slope? [Emily Long]: Question for the math teacher. So I feel like when my kids were in school, either we were getting them the Texas Instruments calculators or the or they had them in the class. [Jay Nichols]: At a hundred and thirty five to a hundred and fifty dollars a piece, my school couldn't pull that. [Leanne Harple]: It was that. No. [Chair Peter Conlon]: But like if but it does a Chromebook. [Jay Nichols]: But the problem on the Chromebook is it's not a square window. So when you graph your lines, they actually don't intersect like they're supposed to because it's elongated. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Well, here's what she wants. [Emily Long]: I think here's the answer. Yes. [Jay Nichols]: So I just don't wanna go on a slippery slow volume [Chair Peter Conlon]: of that. So here's the answers as I probably see it. None of the high schools who have come in and talk to us have ever mentioned anything about graphing calculators. No. Okay. We have I [Jay Nichols]: mean, a quick search just showed that there are online graphing calculators. [Kate McCann]: Like, it is possible to overcome this without needing to bring back the phones. But I do worry in some ways that we're not anticipating all of the taught a video class and up until this last year when we were given a grant, [Beth Quimby]: we had the kids had [Kate McCann]: to use their phones because that was the video camera that everybody had, you know. So, like, are we gonna, in our poorer schools, be eliminating for, like, videography classes if Yeah. They don't have the money for them or, like [Chair Peter Conlon]: Oh, with first of all, with the foundation formula, we should not have poorer schools. That's right. [Kate McCann]: You're right. It's gonna work out perfectly. [Jay Nichols]: Oh. I'm okay with CP. I just know that there's gonna be other [Chair Peter Conlon]: voice and more [Emily Long]: exceptions also. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. Again, I just you know, I and this is just me speaking for myself. I have a real problem with requiring families to provide the tools I agree. For education. [Jay Nichols]: No. And just to clarify, I didn't require the kids to use their phones, [Kate McCann]: but everyone had them. And so that was the solution that we Right. Came up with. Yeah. [Chair Peter Conlon]: It's a solution. Yeah. [Jana Brown]: So just dual enrollment or early college? [Chair Peter Conlon]: No. Early college, you're unenrolled. You're not enrolled. So you're not enrolled. [Jana Brown]: Oh, straight. Okay. So just dual enrollment dot CTE [Jay Nichols]: or yes? Yes. [Chris Taylor]: I think Or [Jay Nichols]: leave CTE the flexibility. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. Yes. We will make an exception for CTE classes for which, you know, use of personal electronics is integral to the instructional program. I'm making words out there. Nice. I know. Those are all real words. [Jana Brown]: Do you wanna keep so for dual enrollment, I heard it's necessary for the program. Do you wanna say necessary or integral? Because I think necessary is different than integral. [Chair Peter Conlon]: I would say necessary. Okay. Yeah. Because I don't wanna encourage you so that's true. [Jana Brown]: K. So we've got dual enrollment, CTE. [Jay Nichols]: Stop there. Alright. Can be added later. [Chair Peter Conlon]: I'm looking at the shoot. Oh, I I think off campus. [Jay Nichols]: Yes. School district. School district. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Out of out of building [Jay Nichols]: Out of building. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Events field trips trips. [Jay Nichols]: Stay out I would say off camp. Because you stay out of building. Out of the building. I'm still on campus. [Kate McCann]: There I mean, there there are also online apps and ways to do two factor authentication without a phone too. Like, all of these have solutions that don't involve needing to put in exceptions. [Chair Peter Conlon]: So do require no Yes. It's more [Chris Taylor]: It's blogging. [Chair Peter Conlon]: If you're doing dual enrollment at a like, at another place I I would. That you may have there. Can there our own system that requires you to have a phone? Alright. What about what about field trips? [Emily Long]: I think it's just just [Chair Peter Conlon]: the the policy is limited to school grounds? [Jay Nichols]: I like the before when you said that the school could have discretion for off campus. Right. And suppose Let's [Chair Peter Conlon]: put it that way. Whatever that works. Provide policy will allow schools discretion for things that take When [Jay Nichols]: students are off campus. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Or off school property. I sort of think about, you know, they're all in France. [Leanne Harple]: Does the bill to bill still apply? [Emily Long]: Does your phone even work? [Jay Nichols]: I don't know. [Jana Brown]: Okay. And this is just for personal electronic devices. Yep. [Chair Peter Conlon]: No. That's pretty. [Jana Brown]: We haven't touched social media yet. Right? [Chair Peter Conlon]: That's right. That's great. We're not talking about social media yet. [Leanne Harple]: So we [Jay Nichols]: get that one. We get that one. We get that one. Changing the effective data would be an easy fix. Right? [Chair Peter Conlon]: Maybe. Maybe. Some people may be feeling more urgency, but but I think the reality is is that, you know, this may not pass until [Jay Nichols]: But not being in the middle of the school year like it currently is. [Leanne Harple]: It's Yeah. [Kate McCann]: It's really hard to get obvious to stop doing things once you've said you can do it for four months. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. [Jay Nichols]: It's, like, so hard. Yeah. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. Effective July first twenty twenty six. [Jay Nichols]: Or even I'm just [Chris Taylor]: sorry. So [Chair Peter Conlon]: social media. [Jay Nichols]: And I think that's we have left another. That [Casey Toof]: last social [Emily Long]: media meeting. So, essentially, [Chair Peter Conlon]: what we're saying is that the the big picture here is that we're requiring schools to adopt policies Yes. That have these. [Jana Brown]: That's not how section well [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yep. Go ahead. [Jana Brown]: Section and this is all, like I said yesterday, you should consider any bill that's introduced to you as a blank canvas. Mhmm. Sorry, sponsors. Right. Section five eighty three is drafted. It's just a straight up prohibition. There's no requirement for a policy. Okay. [Chair Peter Conlon]: So that was the technique used in some of the other states was essentially requiring policies that do all of this as opposed to [Chris Taylor]: Right. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Banning it in statute. Sarah, do you but, like, is there an advantage of one or the other? Is one more adjustable If you want future? [Jana Brown]: If you wanna offer any amount of flexibility in the policy, I think it's easier to just have a policy where you're Procedures. Giving discretion to the school districts to develop those policies with some guidelines rather than a million different exemptions in statute. Mhmm. [Jay Nichols]: But I [Jana Brown]: think it really depends on how complicated you're getting. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Right. [Jana Brown]: Mhmm. This is pretty this is pretty straightforward and simple. Yep. You could either ask someone to develop a policy that complies with this and they can't stray from that, or you just say you can't do this, and there's really no need for a policy. This is just the law. Right? You know, there's no policy on every law. So I think part of it depends on how much discretion you want school districts to have. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Okay. Because we'll keep we'll keep developing, and then we'll [Jana Brown]: And [Leanne Harple]: I complicated yet. [Jana Brown]: I should say that's my perspective as your legislative attorney for straight up drafting a law. I'm always gonna recommend that you check on the field and the people who would actually be executing the [Emily Long]: law. Yeah. [Casey Toof]: Also great. [Leanne Harple]: Because some policies come with procedures that allow administration to be different within that policy. I just wanna keep that in mind. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Social media. Right. So this is, you know, this is where we're getting out ahead of a lot of other states that have sort of a bell to bell band. Right. Yeah. I am not I don't have a strong opinion here one more or the other. So if you if I sound like I'm discouraging or whatever, I'm not. Mhmm. [Emily Long]: Say more about that. Do you have a strong opinion about [Chair Peter Conlon]: don't have strong opinion about this part. [Leanne Harple]: Oh, sorry. I mean, I [Chair Peter Conlon]: had said earlier we could we could word it. Sounds like I had lots of good words coming out of my mouth. That just says, you know, for official communication with students. [Emily Long]: Right. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Well, let's say, like, school districts could Yeah. We're about allowing them to pick a a communication tool Yes. That does not require this meeting. Facebook. I mean, I think it's it's here. I can wrap it up. Say [Leanne Harple]: it's social. [Jay Nichols]: I don't know. You [Chair Peter Conlon]: Good. Maybe [Jay Nichols]: something like school and these are you just made up words again. Schools, school districts, and supervisory unions are limited or or utilize social media for communication with students. Now I lost the words. They're are use utilizing social media for communication with students directly is limited to the platform approved by the school district. [Chair Peter Conlon]: That's right. Something like that. It was it was something like that. [Jay Nichols]: That's true. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Okay. [Jay Nichols]: Something like that. [Chair Peter Conlon]: So I think the goal here is what we're trying to say is for direct communicate direct or official communication, a communication tool or platform can be used, selected by the school district, and that needs to be the official [Leanne Harple]: platform. When [Jay Nichols]: you throw on the word official communication, does that open up a possibility for teachers or staff members to still personally be communicating with kids over social media? [Chair Peter Conlon]: I would assume at this point, doesn't every school have a policy that says you are not allowed to do that and that you can only do it via email? [Jay Nichols]: Maybe. I see that policy broken so many times. [Leanne Harple]: Jay, go ahead. [Casey Toof]: For the record, Jay Nichols, executive director of Mott Principal Association two stage one. Do not assume that. [Jana Brown]: Right. [Casey Toof]: I think there's plenty of places where it's the wild west. [Chris Taylor]: Yeah. Yeah. [Casey Toof]: And then secondly, I was just gonna say since we're kinda stuck in our sitting are sitting together, and we think it might be worthwhile having, like, the AOE come testify on this a little bit. We worked together for the session talking about some of the particulars around this and we or having Stephanie testify or whatever. That's some of the language that we had to help you with some of this. Yeah. Sorry. I'm sorry. Go [Chair Peter Conlon]: ahead. That's fine. Stephanie, would you like to offer some comments? Sure. Yep. [Jay Nichols]: Yep. Can I do [Beth Quimby]: it from here? [Emily Long]: Yes. [Beth Quimby]: Good. Okay. Stephanie Winters. I am with the Vermont Medical Society as well as the American Academy of Pediatrics, Vermont chapter, Vermont Academy of Family Physicians, and the Vermont Psychiatric Association. I did submit, written comments. Apologies. They were, this morning. But I just a little background. We did start talking about this last fall in anticipation. So we met with our principal partners, superintendents, school boards, school nurses, NAOE. [Chris Taylor]: Some pediatric pediatric [Beth Quimby]: doctors. My group and [Jana Brown]: then the health [Beth Quimby]: department, all talking about how this would look, what would work for schools, and be best for our youth. Number one, we really thought that the youth need to be involved in any policies that are set up because I think pediatricians say it all the time, nothing about us without us. And so we thought that was really important, and this bill is lacking in that area. [Chair Peter Conlon]: I I will just say we have had lots of kids kinda talk to us about this. [Beth Quimby]: Right. But about the actual policies the schools are implementing. Yes. Not not you guys. You guys are doing great. But with with the schools, with the school boards, whoever's making the decisions about what the policies look like. And since in in this bill, it's up to each school district or so they're all gonna look different. We did talk a little bit about that too and brought that up yesterday. Yeah. Our partners are you know, we all were a little like, well, it should come maybe a little at least a little guidance from the top because it feels like schools are all kind of out there on their own. They're not quite sure what to do. It'd be great to have model policy, which is actually what our our model bill looked like was to have us keep meeting as a group, as partners to come up with a model policy to provide to that AOE could then beat down. Option. I did offer that to representative Arsenal, and she really felt an urgency to to do it in here. So we do support this, but I think there was question about both needing more support about implementing and more guidelines and what flexibilities are needed to what you've been talking about this morning. And so those were my main point, [Jana Brown]: I think. Yeah. [Chris Taylor]: And I think I'll [Casey Toof]: I'll go in and we also met with representative Arsenal, the executive council of EPA, listened to her and still thought that there's some work that need to be done, and then we had another voice over there, like, to weigh in. [Emily Long]: Yes. [Speaker 10 ]: Thank you. Sue Steglowski, executive director for the Vermont School Board Association. I just wanted to make sure the committee is aware that the SBA has model policy manual. We provide those model policies to school boards. And if you, pass a law that says they have to have a policy, we very quickly develop one, and, they're able to use that model policy. And the caution I would have about asking the agency to do it is that oftentimes there's a deadline for them to do it and they miss the deadline by a couple of years. And then everyone doesn't have the policy in place because they're waiting. And then we end up sometimes doing it ourselves anyway. So I would that's what I have to say about that. [Leanne Harple]: Yeah. I'll just add one more thing if I can. [Chair Peter Conlon]: You're talking about you're talking about [Casey Toof]: the dates. We wanna make sure there's time for warnings for policy to be approved. Yeah. You start talking about July one twenty twenty six. Yeah. Yes. That that gives us plenty of time if you pass it this session. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Well, and that is if we go the route of saying you must adopt policy as opposed to just putting it in statute. Exactly. Yeah. [Beth Quimby]: Can I add one more thing? There was a section on exemptions that I did suggest changing. There's a under exemptions, it says it needs to be a a written exemption from a physician or an APRN. [Emily Long]: Yes. [Beth Quimby]: I actually we had talked about that within our group about striking that part and adding individual individualized health plan in the IEP five zero four plans, and that would take care of that both. So you don't have to you don't put the primary care office, say, in the middle of the discussions. They just report it to the school and say this as part of their individual health plan, they should already [Emily Long]: be in there. [Beth Quimby]: Have an exemption and then [Speaker 10 ]: create not like a four. [Leanne Harple]: Like a recent Individual health plan, is that a thing? [Beth Quimby]: Yes. It [Chair Peter Conlon]: is. Okay. You read that? [Casey Toof]: Yeah. If it's in the IEP or the five zero four, then [Chris Taylor]: it's Okay. Binding document. [Casey Toof]: We were worried also to be honest about parent some parents pressuring, you know, practitioners. [Emily Long]: Right. We [Casey Toof]: wanna try to address that. [Emily Long]: So if if I'm getting this straight, if it's if it's already in their IEP or five zero four that there's medical thing, then you don't need anything else. [Beth Quimby]: And you can add the IHP, the individualized health plan. That's the school nurses talk about that, so I think that's something true with this. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Okay. Is is that a is an IHP a separate separate and apart from a five zero four? And it so I just keep think about the the kid who needs to check blood sugar with his phone might have just And that's a five zero four. [Casey Toof]: They well, they could've theoretically just have. [Beth Quimby]: Just to cover it, I would have Yeah. [Jana Brown]: I was gonna [Jay Nichols]: say it doesn't No. [Chair Peter Conlon]: No. Other than that. [Beth Quimby]: Other than that. I was gonna do this. [Jana Brown]: I think I will reserve my questions or comments depending on your where you go. Yeah. Okay. [Chair Peter Conlon]: I just didn't know if you had a thought of things called individual I [Jana Brown]: do, and I'm gonna reserve it until I figure out where you're gonna go. I was gonna say it doesn't have [Jay Nichols]: to be existing or already in there. If someone has to have a phone, then you create a five zero four way. Mhmm. You know? Yeah. It'd be an IP. It'd be a five zero four. Be an IP. And a five zero four doesn't involve funding. [Chair Peter Conlon]: It's just a combination. [Leanne Harple]: And and then [Jay Nichols]: you have your legal document [Emily Long]: And it's legal. [Chair Peter Conlon]: In a five zero four. So I wanna go back to something you said earlier that I guess I'm wondering I'm hearing a desire for sort of more discussion, more input, but don't we have enough on the ground experience between the school among the schools that are doing this to sort of know that it can happen and it can work? I mean, I feel like it like, isn't the time for a talk over and the time for action has arrived? [Casey Toof]: That's what that [Chair Peter Conlon]: action is. [Chris Taylor]: Backing up a little bit to allowing the school to have some some kind of communication program that they deem is, you know, is is good to use. I would like to add parameters in that where the communications read is archived and accessible by the district and printable [Casey Toof]: if necessary. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Wow. I'm sure. [Chris Taylor]: But because there are communications tools out there and if legal matters come up Yep. Then having it in a printable form where the district can just print off [Chair Peter Conlon]: the exact communication that happened. It's gonna be Also keeps people careful. Yeah. [Emily Long]: Yes? [Speaker 10 ]: Susan Glass, Beavermont School Boards Association. I just wanted to make sure the committee is aware that in twenty eighteen act five, required school boards to have a policy on electronic communications between employees and students. [Chair Peter Conlon]: It's probably So there is [Speaker 10 ]: a model policy on that already. I'm not sure if it addresses everything that you want to address, but I just wanna make sure [Beth Quimby]: you get aware of it. I I [Chair Peter Conlon]: thought that there was. That's why I said, isn't it already in something in place about communication? Yeah. [Beth Quimby]: I just had a quick question for Sue. Can you remind us really briefly how you all develop your model policies, like, what that process is? [Speaker 10 ]: How we develop them? Yeah. We our model policy manual has three sections. It has a required section, a recommended section, and to be considered. And the required section, grows as the legislature, puts in place laws that says that say that a policy is required. And, once you have passed a law, we take a look at the language of that law and make sure that the policy, reflects that language. It also goes through review of multiple attorneys, and then, if we publish it in our model policy manual. There are times when the legislature has required the agency of education to issue a model policy, and that's a different process that they go through. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Whatever we decide here for the [Chris Taylor]: social media aspect of this, [Emily Long]: is this gonna [Jay Nichols]: happen to commerce? [Chair Peter Conlon]: I don't think so. Yeah. Because we're not banning them doing business in Vermont. Alright. Further thoughts? [Jay Nichols]: May I ask a good question? Yeah. Is that something that at some future date commerce would be allowed to do is ban social media from doing business in Vermont? Is that even allowed? [Chair Peter Conlon]: I I don't know. Probably not that. It's followed by the air interstate commerce. Okay. [Jay Nichols]: I was just curious after you said. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Okay. So we have a number of questions in front of us. One is, do we just sort of say all schools must adopt a policy with these parameters, or do we say this is the policy for the state? I'm gonna try to sum up with what the [Emily Long]: council has said, is that if it's [Chair Peter Conlon]: kinda complicated, then go with recommended that it might be best to go with a recommended policy. But if it's fairly straightforward, it's probably not bad. It's probably six one a dozen other. Right? Pretty good. [Jana Brown]: Sure. And if I may, I think your witnesses, Sai, brought up a great point about the consistency. Yes. So if there's no model policy, and you're just leaving policy development to the discretion of each school district, even if the school board's associate has the model policy Right. Then there could be great consistency inconsistency in those policies. So that's another factor to [Chair Peter Conlon]: Basically, that's a great factor. [Jay Nichols]: Is it the whole point of this that we're trying to create a statewide policy, though? Like, it feels like if we said this is just a recommendation, then we're kind of undoing everything that we've just worked to do. [Chair Peter Conlon]: What we're trying to do is is to, yes, make it a statewide action, but do we do that by requiring every school to adopt their own policy based on these guidelines, or do we just say this is the policy Right. For everybody. [Jay Nichols]: Right. But if we have firm guidelines, like, these are the sort of nonstarters right here, then wouldn't they all be basically adopting the same policy anyway? [Chair Peter Conlon]: Don't know. What haven't we considered? Right. That's the question. [Leanne Harple]: I'm just looking at that model policy that that we just heard about, and and it does define social media in that model policy as b b eight, which is required. It's the one that Sue just discussed. And it does it's very specific. Yes. Yes. Social media is any form of online publication or presence that allows interactive communication, including but not limited to social networks, blogs, websites, and Internet forums. Examples are given. Examples of social media include but are not limited to Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. First, Twitter's was there then. It isn't now. This was from twenty twenty. Instagram, YouTube, and Google plus. [Chair Peter Conlon]: So yeah. Just try to throw that out there. There'd be more probably we'll say, you know, no social media other than the one that [Casey Toof]: the school district picks. Yeah. Zero, Jay. Thanks. Again, Jay Nichols, DPA. I just wanted to to remind you that what you're doing here is fantastic. So don't get worried about everything. You're not gonna be able to catch the fact that you're gonna be taking well, having kids not using phones, being on the phones and using phones during the school day without having forty kids, huge step in the right direction. [Emily Long]: Absolutely. Absolutely. Thanks. Yeah. I agree. I'm I'm more in favor of just throwing up policy. [Chair Peter Conlon]: I'm I'm not doing social media or communications, but all of this dealing with [Emily Long]: Well But, no, all of it. You know? All of it. Just instead of instead of leaving it up and saying adopt a policy, let's just do it. Yep. [Jay Nichols]: I guess I would be in favor of not really getting too much into the social media too because it seems like schools during the day, bell to bell, are already blocking all of that social media. And for, like, the reasons we've already talked about, social media in itself, by any definition we've looked at, is [Kate McCann]: not necessarily a bad thing, like, because of the parts of content creation. So if [Jay Nichols]: we just leave it, I think [Kate McCann]: that we're gonna achieve the ends we're looking for anyway. [Chair Peter Conlon]: I I personally agree with rep Taylor that we should put some guardrails on it. What what schools can use for official communication with schools? I agree. Sure. Sure. That would not curtail a a teacher saying, Shana, I'd like you to go home and read this substack column or log or whatever. Right. On your Chromebook. Correct. So I I don't think we're you know, the things that you were you have raised concerns about, right, over the scope. Well, this is just about additional communication. Just a real we're gonna have superintendent of Stow Morrisville coming in and talk to us about what happened. They worked with Okay. And I I do sort of I still am thinking about the logistics. I think about our kids coming in and, you know, the pile up at the door. [Emily Long]: Well, the kids at Harwood, what they say, took just a couple days to sort it out. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. And that's what I'm here. [Emily Long]: If you don't need to get, like, two or three locations figure it out. Yeah. [Jay Nichols]: I think you need to because the geography of schools is different. [Emily Long]: Yep. [Jay Nichols]: Like, because some drop it off in the home room. In my school where I taught, I was on the fourth floor. The kids go to breakfast. So where are they gonna come in, go up four flights of stairs, leave it there, and then go back to you know? So every school, the geographies of the school is different. So I think they need to figure it out. [Chair Peter Conlon]: So I I wanna take five minutes just to wrap up this conversation, give us a break, and then we'll start again right after. So what we need to do is make sure you are giving legislative council enough direction to come back with some language, and I'm not sure we've done that. Would you like to help us get help you? [Jay Nichols]: Thank you. [Emily Long]: You wanna make up the rest? [Jana Brown]: So if we're looking at if we go section by section Yep. I haven't heard anything about section one findings, so I'm just gonna move on to section two, which is that new subchapter seven, section fifth five eighty one on sixteen. I haven't heard you mention anything about this definition of cell phone. I have heard mentioned, but no direction to me of the definition of electronic device. May need some more. Haven't heard anything about parent or school, and I have heard, you all discuss a desire to potentially change the definition of social media, but I don't have any direction on that. [Chair Peter Conlon]: But I would I might say we would just strike out any definition of social media. Okay. Right. And and well, maybe not. [Chris Taylor]: That's quite annoying. [Jana Brown]: I know you don't have a definition of social media. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. [Jana Brown]: Kiddos are gonna find a way Mhmm. To convince someone that whatever they're doing is not [Speaker 10 ]: social media. [Jay Nichols]: Or at least argue the [Leanne Harple]: point. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Well, how can I I thought that was more about direct communication? Right. [Jana Brown]: So this is just definitions. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. [Jana Brown]: As well as this. [Emily Long]: Yeah. But I [Chair Peter Conlon]: I guess I have to look where where it shows up in there. Yeah. Okay. [Jana Brown]: Table that. Okay. So it's, on page six, section five eighty two, personal electronic devices. We're gonna have I'm gonna add some exception language about engaged in dual enrollment, whether it's on or off campus, if use of an electronic device is necessary for the program. [Jay Nichols]: Mhmm. [Jana Brown]: CTE classes for which electronics device use is integral to instruction. And you'll come we'll come back, and we'll wordsmith this. Yep. Yep. And then off campus is totally up to school's discretion [Jay Nichols]: Mhmm. [Jana Brown]: Yeah. For electronic devices. Anything else related to electronic devices? [Jay Nichols]: Are we in exceptions, like, after a hundred? Because I [Jana Brown]: mean, I I'm not looking at the language. Yeah. [Jay Nichols]: Okay. [Jana Brown]: I'm talking about your discussion. Okay. Oh, oh, and I'm hearing [Jay Nichols]: of the under on lines thirteen through whatever where we have number one. Number two, we have a suggestion online which should streamline or not. [Jana Brown]: Here are my here are my thoughts. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yes. [Jana Brown]: One, an individual health plan, is not defined in title sixteen. I believe that that is a concept that school nurses use related to national school nurse literature and guidance and best practices. Right. So I would suggest that that is if you're gonna use that term here, you provide a definition for it Okay. Because it's not in title sixteen. I I have not looked in any other title, but if it's not in title sixteen, being in another title is not super helpful Mhmm. To this context. So that would be my thought, and I can work on getting you a definition for that. [Chair Peter Conlon]: That would be great. [Jay Nichols]: Yeah. [Jana Brown]: And then I would just encourage you to consult with the experts on whether every medical need like, does every kid I the conversation you all have been having has has hinged largely around kiddos with diabetes and their blood glucose monitors. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Right? Mhmm. [Jana Brown]: Does every kiddo with diabetes have a five zero four plan? [Jay Nichols]: They could, [Chair Peter Conlon]: or that's why an individual Okay. Most [Jay Nichols]: do, though. Okay. So I [Jana Brown]: can come up with some language there. [Emily Long]: Doc says yes. [Jay Nichols]: Because I'm wondering why we need number one if we have number two because the position So So [Jana Brown]: I can we're not looking at this language. Yeah. We're looking at your brain right now. Yep. [Chair Peter Conlon]: So you [Jana Brown]: So don't worry about the language on [Chair Peter Conlon]: the page. [Jana Brown]: I will come back to you with something that looks different based on this conversation. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Excellent. [Jana Brown]: And then section on page seven, section five eighty three, social media. No official communication with students unless the program or platform is approved by the school district. [Emily Long]: Okay. [Jana Brown]: You're leaving that open to them to We are. Facebook. That's right. [Chair Peter Conlon]: And I don't know I don't know how we [Jay Nichols]: They're not going to. [Jana Brown]: So They might I mean, I think the reality of some of these communications that you all need to to because if it's not me saying it, I'm sure it'll be someone else in this seat, is if the school is trying to get in touch with a parent, they're also trying to figure out where a parent is gonna be easily accessible. Right. And so they may choose Facebook because everyone's on Facebook. They might. [Jay Nichols]: And I'm I'm like [Chair Peter Conlon]: Parents. Yeah. [Emily Long]: Yeah. That's kind of like, that's true. This is it is. [Jana Brown]: So you have to live with that choice if you don't if you don't narrow it. [Chair Peter Conlon]: But if we were talking about we not care about parents and say Okay. Official communication With students Okay. Cannot use a we could not use a social get the device off again. [Jay Nichols]: I mean, a lot of I [Leanne Harple]: I was also gonna say I I haven't read it yet, but I did just email you and Annie and you that the model policy that that Sue brought up about electronic communications between it is a required policy and it's based on legislation [Chair Peter Conlon]: Right. [Leanne Harple]: That we passed in twenty eighteen. It came into effect in twenty twenty. You gave that to us? No. It's huge. [Jay Nichols]: Okay. It's a I [Leanne Harple]: mean, I could, but you wouldn't allow me to. But I did email it so that Anne can send it to the committee on all that. I just think it's really important that whatever we align we we're doing here, we need to align with our model policy that is very explicit. And it was [Chair Peter Conlon]: act five of twenty eighteen? [Speaker 10 ]: Act five of twenty eighteen, and that model policy is one that was required. Right. The AOE was required to issue, and so I did It it's under their sort of under their jurisdiction. Yeah. [Leanne Harple]: And it says that right on the policy. Yeah. And it comes [Jay Nichols]: down. Yeah. [Jana Brown]: And that's the def but that's for the definition of social media that we're looking at this? Or just [Leanne Harple]: It's it's electronic communications between employees and students. [Jay Nichols]: Okay. [Leanne Harple]: So I think it fits into what we're talking about. We wanna make sure read that. [Emily Long]: Right. Exactly. Already been done. [Chair Peter Conlon]: It may help. Yeah. [Leanne Harple]: I'm saying. [Jana Brown]: Okay. And that but that is just [Jay Nichols]: for section [Jana Brown]: five eighty three, just in relation to communication. Yes. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. [Jay Nichols]: You [Jana Brown]: wanna still ban [Leanne Harple]: use of social media? It would change this. [Jana Brown]: On school issued electronic devices? Yes. [Chair Peter Conlon]: I thought school issued electronic devices [Leanne Harple]: already Don't count on it. Accessed. [Emily Long]: Yeah. Don't count on it. [Jay Nichols]: Count on that. [Emily Long]: Okay. Kids find regular. They find workarounds. [Leanne Harple]: Mhmm. So keep the yeah. [Emily Long]: Andy's giving me the nod. I'm going. [Chair Peter Conlon]: It's just going out of there. Not allowing it on there even if the school says no, but making it [Jana Brown]: What about subdivision a two? A two. Permitting students [Chair Peter Conlon]: use asking require meeting students. [Jay Nichols]: I would just have the word requiring. Well, asking in return. [Chris Taylor]: Yes. Yes. [Jay Nichols]: Permitting piece is the tricky part. I would say asking or requiring. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Use social media. It's called activities. Yeah. [Beth Quimby]: And forget about So we're [Chair Peter Conlon]: thinking about asking and permitting? Okay. We're just taking No. [Jay Nichols]: I think you need asking to stay in there. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Because then [Chris Taylor]: requiring students' use of social media for school activities. Yes. [Chair Peter Conlon]: I'm not quite sure how the word asking works grammatically. Yeah. [Jay Nichols]: They are prohibited from asking or requiring student use of social media. [Chair Peter Conlon]: But if you were to take out everything about the word asking [Chris Taylor]: So just saying requiring What does it mean? [Jay Nichols]: I I Go ahead. [Jana Brown]: This is what you pay me for. [Jay Nichols]: Yeah. You don't figure it out. [Jana Brown]: I can I can figure that out if I know that all you wanna do is get rid of the word per minute? Right. Yeah. [Emily Long]: Right. [Jana Brown]: But I I don't know that I know that. [Leanne Harple]: That's Yeah. Yes. [Jay Nichols]: I think it's too hard to monitor after that. Okay. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yes. It's all about inquiring them to yeah. Okay. Okay. [Jay Nichols]: And then the effective dates, we just have to make it at the start of the school year instead of the middle of the school year. [Emily Long]: August first [Chair Peter Conlon]: or something. So now this, however, gets into having to define social media, and we've we've already heard one description that talk about blogs, which I think gets to Leanne's concern. All of a sudden now we are saying you can't even do that. [Jay Nichols]: No. Because we said the school could have a platform. Right? [Chair Peter Conlon]: Could what? [Jay Nichols]: Didn't you say the school could have a platform? [Chris Taylor]: So that's [Jay Nichols]: how I fix it? [Chair Peter Conlon]: This says schools are prohibited from requiring use of social media for school activities Oh, [Jay Nichols]: I see what's happening. Academic homework. I see what you're saying. Because they're requiring [Chair Peter Conlon]: Right. Yeah. [Emily Long]: But but a blog wouldn't [Chair Peter Conlon]: Alright. Alright. We're gonna we'll go to here comes the answer to representative Brady. [Emily Long]: I see the pause. [Chair Peter Conlon]: There's a [Speaker 11 ]: pause. Oh, god. It's not the answer. It was something different. So keep going in that in that thread. I don't wanna derail you. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Well, we may be ready for a change in in what you're [Speaker 11 ]: Okay. I've tried to convince myself not to say this, but I'm gonna say it. I I'm not sure we should be putting in exemptions for things like dual enrollment. I think Leanne's got a good point. There are other ways to do things. And until we know that you can't do it another way, I'm worried that we keep sort of bending over backwards in our k twelve system to accommodate things that are outside of our k twelve system. If, you know, higher ed institutions are getting the dual enrollment dollars, I Okay. If there's a website they can use for, two factor authentication, they should figure that out. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Okay. We can get testimony on that. She ain't right. She ain't right. I think I I think of kids being on a college campus for a course. [Speaker 11 ]: Oh, yeah. That I think is out of our control. I mean, they're not at school then, Yeah. Which is, you know, raises the question why they're on k twelve dollars, but they're not at school then. [Jay Nichols]: I mean School enrollment course. At at Hazen, plenty of kids take it right in the library. Right. And I wouldn't want a situation in which they get to [Kate McCann]: have their phone and now it's [Jana Brown]: just out on their desk. Yeah. That's [Jay Nichols]: Then it starts to unravel. Exactly. Technicals. Yeah. I think that's a good point. [Speaker 11 ]: That's my concern. [Chair Peter Conlon]: In my head, I was looking at a kid going down to CCB [Leanne Harple]: No. Or They're off campus. [Jay Nichols]: So they're off campus. [Speaker 11 ]: They're off campus is all bets off. I'm talking about on campus. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yep. Yep. Alright. I agree. Yeah. Take it. I agree too. [Emily Long]: Yep. [Speaker 11 ]: Thank you. [Chair Peter Conlon]: We'll get a little testimony. I know we've got a couple people who could testify on that. And, again, so far so good with those schools that have just done this. [Jay Nichols]: Mhmm. Yeah. [Chair Peter Conlon]: No one's come and said to us. With stuff. We're right. We're done. Yeah. Yeah. [Jay Nichols]: I am curious about the medical exceptions because that was what I'm like. Because it's like, okay. So you have it to read your to scan. How do I know you're not on TikTok the rest of the day? How have do we have any test on how other schools who have this policy have dealt with medical exceptions? [Chair Peter Conlon]: I think they just have them. But but but the classroom behavior they call us? But the teacher still has power over the classroom behavior to say that your phone's not out. [Leanne Harple]: I just [Jay Nichols]: don't know if we've if they've talked about any medical exceptions in [Chair Peter Conlon]: any case. We've got the superintendent of of Morrisville, so coming in. We'll get we'll get lost that question. Yeah. [Jana Brown]: Two things. One is that maybe there's [Kate McCann]: a way that you could handle that in the same way we handle medication. You take [Jana Brown]: it in the nurse's office, and so that's where your [Jay Nichols]: phone lives. Yeah. [Chair Peter Conlon]: I just don't [Jay Nichols]: know if they've already figured it out. [Jana Brown]: Second, in in terms of this I'm sorry that [Kate McCann]: I threw in this monkey wrench about blogging and other content creation. [Chair Peter Conlon]: No. [Jay Nichols]: But I [Kate McCann]: have a solution. I mean, couldn't in that page seven, [Jay Nichols]: where it says asking or requiring your permit [Kate McCann]: permitting, etcetera, couldn't you just put in the phrase in less integral to a specific lesson at the impression of the teacher and leave it at [Chair Peter Conlon]: that? We try. Okay. Again, these are all good questions when we get them before people from field and [Emily Long]: Yep. To define to define what that is. Because I've done. [Jana Brown]: Do you wanna see that language for the next draft? [Chair Peter Conlon]: I'm not sure about that language, by the way. [Leanne Harple]: But [Chair Peter Conlon]: I think we'll we'll we'll put it in. [Chris Taylor]: We'll discuss more. Yeah. [Jana Brown]: So do you wanna see it in the draft or just [Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. [Kate McCann]: Can I ask what your concerns are? [Chris Taylor]: Just having a teacher discretion to be able to go against [Casey Toof]: Policy or something. [Chair Peter Conlon]: I mean, you know, I think your intention is, like, there are there are valuable, like, blogs to go to or whatever. Yeah. I mean, concern is teachers can say, I want everybody on Facebook or Right. Something like that. Right. Mhmm. And [Emily Long]: I guess it gives [Chair Peter Conlon]: you a definition of social media. [Jay Nichols]: Right. That's not even though what I'm talking about. So, like, [Kate McCann]: I guess we need to really figure out what is the difference between something like Facebook and other nonsocial media content creation that we know somehow is not social media. We just haven't been able to just haven't been able to quite say why. [Emily Long]: Yeah. Plus we use for example, like the [Chair Peter Conlon]: WordPress other devlogs social media. Created for educational purposes. You know? I mean, there's there's enough field testing going on right now Yeah. Between the Powerwood and separate academy and these others that [Emily Long]: Yeah. And maybe it's not even something you have to worry about. [Jay Nichols]: So if they can speak to that as well. Right. [Emily Long]: Because you know you're not using Instaker after kids loading up essays and other kids could take them up. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Alright. Let's let's close the discussion here. Let's take a five minute break, and then we're gonna come back. And I have I I had Beth scheduled to talk to us just to so we understand the rules about tuition in Vermont. [Jay Nichols]: Mhmm. And [Chair Peter Conlon]: I asked her to come in weeks ago and then it kept getting bumped. And so since we have some time and this is not about, like, tuitioning and independent schools. This is how our tuition rates set. [Jay Nichols]: Mhmm. [Chair Peter Conlon]: Because I've been getting a lot of questions from people about it. That's gonna be good for us to have a Mhmm. Number of people who understand the rules. [Emily Long]: Okay. Rather. [Jay Nichols]: Okay.

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