SmartTranscript of House Education - 2025-02-12 - 1:30 PM

[Peter Conlon]: We are here at House Education, February eleventh twenty twenty five for a committee discussion. I I did sort of the high level of sort of moving forward in terms of cost containment and other things. But to really kinda sub stage here, so over lunch, representative Taylor said to me, do you have a, like, a timeline in mind here? And he's he is the second person to ask me that today. And we are we are we have a little bit of a tick tock tick tock situation. The legislative process requires a certain I think. And I guess what I would like to start talking about with the whole committee is and I I wanna be clear. There's not any this is not meant to be any sort of initial, like, we're never paying attention to the governors, but when that when that bill comes, it it will probably help us with a a framework. But there is sort of so many big unanswered questions that I think it would be great if we could at least start consolidating around smaller answerable questions and smaller answerable strategies with an eye toward what we can do this year. Perhaps if part of it is advancing that agenda, part of it might be just like people demanded that we start going after cost savings, and we start doing that. Yeah. I think we need to think about achieving scale. We need to look at high cost drivers for drug what ends up coming out of governance. And and, of course, I'll just tell you that I'm pretty sure Ways and Means is a little bit in the same position that this is this is deep, hard stuff that takes a lot of time, and they're still digging through data to figure out the funding portion of things. So [Chris Taylor]: Mhmm. Can I just throw one over? [Peter Conlon]: Yeah. Equity. Equity. I mean, you please just make sure we we have that in my [Chris Taylor]: That's guiding that's what I'm saying. It's guiding. [Peter Conlon]: So what I would like to see is if if we've got some ideas, strategies, and what other we can coalesce around. Meanwhile, yes. Class size. [Erin Brady]: Okay. [Peter Conlon]: Alright. Well, we will maybe we'll start. Oh my god. Need to write some of those. Yes. Okay. No. I'm not this is I don't wanna necessarily jump right into a big brainstorm. Yeah. Yeah. But but but it will ultimately become Let's talk first about cost drivers. Do you [Chris Taylor]: want me to That'll [Peter Conlon]: be good. And and so I would just say when we talk about cost drivers, lack of scale. [Jana Brown]: It's a high number of school buildings. [Peter Conlon]: Or fortunately, it's [Joshua Dobrovich]: Can I mention something that I think is not a cost driver? [Leanne Harple]: I don't [Jana Brown]: I don't know. [Peter Conlon]: Is that falling with the category of cost drivers? [Chris Taylor]: Yeah. Because it's being [Leanne Harple]: what Well, [Joshua Dobrovich]: in the context of cost drivers, I don't think our universal meals program is a cost driver, and I think that when you compare the amount We're [Peter Conlon]: gonna well, we [Jana Brown]: The fall. Put a pin in that. [Peter Conlon]: We're gonna pin put that under another category. [Joshua Dobrovich]: Okay. [Peter Conlon]: Because that are in the Ed Fund that maybe [Jana Brown]: don't don't need to be there. Okay. Yeah. [Robert Hunter]: I think you can put buildings and districts. [Jana Brown]: Scale. You can put districts as use [Peter Conlon]: all the [Chris Taylor]: I wish I was Can [Erin Brady]: we can we subset scale? Like Yes. We will subset scale. Okay. [Peter Conlon]: Could I I'm gonna bring up one. So we currently spend seventy million dollars in extraordinary special education costs. That's for seven hundred kids. A lot of that is out of district placements. [Robert Hunter]: Yeah. You [Peter Conlon]: know, the kind of things that that we are seeing BOCES try to address and then they see addressing that and the learning consortium that we heard. I I would [Jana Brown]: say not just under number of buildings, but the age and construction needs of our buildings. Nice. [Peter Conlon]: Yes. [Jana Brown]: So speaking of sort of extraordinary cost for special ed, can someone remind [Joshua Dobrovich]: me, do we have sort of a report or, [Jana Brown]: like, a preliminary dataset that would help us wrap our head around, like, what that looks like, what it means? Is that something we've had from previous years or something we [Emily Long]: could get? What do we get? [Peter Conlon]: You whether we get testimony, whether we could get numbers and, like, where are kids going, we could ask a week for that as a data request. Yeah. You wanna refine that data request, give it to Anne, and she'll send it to Anne a week. [Jana Brown]: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess yeah. Maybe not even the the well, the where is important, but also just how much. You know? Like, how many students and how much? [Peter Conlon]: From what I've heard is seventy million dollars to seven hundred and twelve kids. Okay. All five for extraordinary special education. That's extraordinary. Under the okay. [Leanne Harple]: There because there's probably also a therapeutic school is kind of spread here. Like, one of those are serving in this Mhmm. [Jana Brown]: Cost there [Peter Conlon]: Out of dishware. Where they're [Leanne Harple]: physically located. [Jana Brown]: Yeah. So [Peter Conlon]: And then this will be followed with what we can we do about [Leanne Harple]: Right. Yeah. Health care. [Jana Brown]: I was just gonna say insurance. [Robert Hunter]: Health care and mental health connections for [Peter Conlon]: Health. Well, let's go separate. You're talking about health care premium cost. Yeah. [Chris Taylor]: I I'm [Kate McCann]: I guess it's, like, to me, it falls under cost, but I don't know if it's cost drivers. But something I heard from a few schools that I went and talked to school boards about was their capital because there are some [Erin Brady]: of them that are like [Kate McCann]: that will likely get closed and and could or could get closed. And they have done well at saving capital to take care of their employees as the community gave them the place to always work State. Take care of them. But the community feels needed. [Robert Hunter]: Yeah. And What's the timeline though? [Peter Conlon]: State state fund is So state introduce all that. [Chris Taylor]: Well, no. It's No. It's still Yeah. Yeah. [Peter Conlon]: What it's I mean, you're talking about you're talking about funds that they built up through surpluses. [Erin Brady]: Yeah. And so what happens [Chris Taylor]: Or dedicated funds. [Kate McCann]: Community retain those funds as it goes to the new district. [Jana Brown]: Or that's just how it answers the question that I'm gonna have to [Robert Hunter]: Jump in there. Return to [Kate McCann]: somebody this weekend. [Emily Long]: To add to my list? [Peter Conlon]: What what so [Erin Brady]: these are called for [Emily Long]: I'm I'm thinking about and I don't know if I'm using the right word. But procurement, the like, how we heat, what Internet we use [Erin Brady]: Oh. [Emily Long]: Buying curriculum books or whatever. [Jana Brown]: And just buying them for this, like, scale up for good reason. [Emily Long]: I don't know. I just don't think we've thought about it much or talked about it much about buying these things. [Erin Brady]: Yeah. I mean, you Yeah. More you're buying more props. [Emily Long]: But I don't want it to get lost in the idea. So sometimes when we talk about scale and number of buildings, we're talking about operating [Chris Taylor]: Shared. [Emily Long]: People. We're we're often talking about peep so to me, it's something different. Like, just figuring out toilet paper. [Chris Taylor]: Like, you're [Emily Long]: It comes all into the state, and then somebody gets it out to all the different schools or something like that. [Robert Hunter]: State could make it. Well, [Kate McCann]: we we do something similar [Jana Brown]: to that. We actually partner [Erin Brady]: with Well, [Robert Hunter]: it's true. [Peter Conlon]: Within the schools [Kate McCann]: or other districts, procure, buy fuel. [Erin Brady]: In Vermont. And we buy it. [Emily Long]: And I would think that that fuel like thing might might have been covered by BOCES before we decided we were gonna throw everything out the window and start fresh. So but, yes, that idea of buying fuel [Peter Conlon]: Right. [Emily Long]: With other with other [Kate McCann]: discounted. Right. And then to the pre [Chris Taylor]: By SCU. [Emily Long]: By SCU. Oh. But even bigger. What if you were buying it for the whole state? So [Chris Taylor]: I know what you're talking. [Jana Brown]: So let's why don't we why [Peter Conlon]: don't we tackle this a little bit one by one? One? And why don't we start off with the big one, consolidation and our portfolio of buildings Mhmm. And all that. And let's talk about what the impediments that exist are that we could perhaps remove when it comes to the the claim that we have too many school buildings for the number of children that we have. [Jana Brown]: So if [Peter Conlon]: you would start a category for impediments to consolidation. [Chris Taylor]: Can I ask a question before you while she's writing that? Cost drivers. I there's one that keeps popping up in my head that isn't a lot of dollars, but it's potential to be a lot of dollars, I think. Maybe. I don't even know because I don't know enough about the proposal. But the cost of tuition to independent schools is a lot higher than what we pay for OMID for public schools. And expanding that concerns me, and I it could be a and I I just I live in an area of a lot of choice, and I've there are nonoperating districts and districts that have both tuitioning and public schools. And when they lose control of the cost of the tuition, it means they're cutting way back on their own interest to make up for it to keep the tax rate. And I see that so often, and I'm just I just don't wanna forget it, and I don't know where it fits in any. [Peter Conlon]: Well, so I would say increasing cost of tuition. We're limited to independent schools. And we've seen we've seen areas where it it turned out to be frankly cheaper for some districts to send their kids over to Kimball Union Academy in New Hampshire because they couldn't pay more than the average house tuition, whereas their closest public school was twenty something thousand dollars. [Chris Taylor]: I I hear you, but I think that example is a minority of the cost that we are seeing. I I don't think I think there's many more that are on the upper end as opposed to [Peter Conlon]: Yeah. Well, and and we have we have one school that meets EQS with the which removes any limits on what their tuition charges. [Chris Taylor]: And I right. And I and I I'm gonna say this only because there's a proposal to expand choice Well to every student in the state of Des Moines. So I just wanna make sure that we're not forgetting. [Jana Brown]: Tuition is restricting on a local budget even if it's not to an independent school because, like, for example, we have a union where I taught as a regional high school, but that each town has to pay a tuition bill. And you have to pay that bill. So anything you wanna negotiate in your elementary school, your money has to cuts have to come from somewhere else. [Peter Conlon]: No. You have no no maneuverability. [Jana Brown]: No maneuverability over that tuition bill even to your own regional high school. [Chris Taylor]: Sorry. Demi, this feels bad. So tuition. [Emily Long]: Okay. Your head of No. [Chris Taylor]: It's not. It's a half driver for the tuition. Blue. [Jana Brown]: Okay. Impediments to the number of bills. [Chris Taylor]: Alright. So I'm gonna [Peter Conlon]: I'll just bring up one that I'm gonna it's been mentioned to me. It's pretty controversial, but we currently have in in pretty much every merged district, we have articles of agreement Yep. Yep. That prevent a school board from taking action Yep. Because it requires accountability. Yep. So I think that that's a real impediment to consolidation. [Leanne Harple]: We we agreed. [Robert Hunter]: Yep. And and just for the record too, you know, talking to my superintendent down there at Greene, she says, I need a mandate. I have three elementary schools. I only need one. Yep. Right. Like but every time she brings this up Yep. Thoughtfully, logically, she gets roared down. [Peter Conlon]: So so I would call that local opposition. [Jana Brown]: That's local. [Robert Hunter]: Yes. And that's the they're in the articles agreement. Right? [Chris Taylor]: Kind of a role. Well, yes. [Peter Conlon]: But then there's just basic Yeah. Pressure community pressure to not do it. [Chris Taylor]: Well, we we often say I'm I'm just What happens? We often say local control doesn't really exist, but what but we have the option to be very controlled. We can control a lot. So local control does that. We just don't is it is there. We just don't exercise it a lot. We exercise it in that example regularly. [Erin Brady]: Yes. [Peter Conlon]: And and it with about people we hire in that number. [Chris Taylor]: Right. Right. I I know. I hate when people say local control is a myth because it's actually not true. We just don't use use it. I bet. [Jana Brown]: I would say another thing, geography. And, you know, they said, you know, there may be need to be some small schools because of geography, but I think that's an impediment to closing. [Peter Conlon]: Would you make local opposition, or I would call it community pressure, a separate thing. Because I'd like to say, okay. What can we do about it? Each of those impediments. We as a. Yeah. [Jana Brown]: We can't change Jack. Jack. Good try. [Joshua Dobrovich]: Are you thinking in the way that you're describing geography that transportation time would go with geography? [Jana Brown]: Yeah. [Leanne Harple]: That's the same issue. [Jana Brown]: Also, not just transportation time, but there's that whole issue of being really close to the border. You know? And is there gonna be an option to go to school across the river as opposed to in your you know, there may not be a a school close to you in your future world district. There's one ten minutes across the river in New Hampshire or or Massachusetts or New York or whatever. Well, you know, I think or Canada. [Chris Taylor]: My phone. One. [Jana Brown]: Across the line of the district. [Peter Conlon]: As we brought up those geographically unique situations, yeah, I think we your secretary each time was, well, yes, there are there have always been exceptions. Right. So we're just [Jana Brown]: you know? But how much? [Peter Conlon]: But there always will be. Yeah. [Jana Brown]: Yeah. [Peter Conlon]: I would just break geography. I don't think there's anything we could change. [Leanne Harple]: Except for us. Well, except for us. Impediments. [Chris Taylor]: And if there's an impediment Yes. [16 seconds of silence] [Peter Conlon]: In the in the near term as opposed to a bigger long range plan. [Leanne Harple]: Is, like, a different delivery geographic places? [Peter Conlon]: Well so why don't we start to talk with scale? So we look at impediments and cost drivers and what we can do about it. So scale, the thing that keeps coming up is class size minimums. [Kate McCann]: Yep. [Peter Conlon]: So let's tag that. [Leanne Harple]: Let's just do one another. That was the score. [Peter Conlon]: Well, or you could exactly. You could put the solutions of the improvements in red. Welcome. [Leanne Harple]: Can I talk about class [Joshua Dobrovich]: size minimums? Because that would now be the point to say something about that. Okay. [Jana Brown]: Yep. Yep. Yep. Just a [Joshua Dobrovich]: couple of words. In thinking about class size minimums, I'm also thinking about the way that we weight certain kinds of pupils when we talk about cost. And I feel like when we talk about physical bodies in the classroom, we need to sort of think along in some ways about being bulls. Because, like, if you have a school where most of the kids have sort of eight like, high levels of aces or come or special ed students or come from poverty that actually can in some ways affect behavior. I know this because I've worked in a really poor school for ten years. And that's gonna be a different fifteen head count than it is in a really sort of rich community where, say, every parent is a college professor. And so I think that I don't know exactly how to do it, but I think something like that waiting needs to be taken into consideration. [Emily Long]: Can't we just weight them the same? [Peter Conlon]: Or are [Emily Long]: they saying count them in your classroom? [Joshua Dobrovich]: Having fifteen trauma kids is different than having Sure. [Robert Hunter]: Be, like, thirty. Right? [Joshua Dobrovich]: Yeah. [Robert Hunter]: Too. Right? So, yeah, whatever the weight is. Concept. [Jana Brown]: I like it. Theoretically, [Leanne Harple]: just something to we go to, like, the ways in the inside of this [Jana Brown]: waiting. That's more account for that, theoretically, [Leanne Harple]: and the the money or that currently the tax capacity that's available to a district and thus could [Jana Brown]: Get the resources Could do you know? [Peter Conlon]: Due to [Jana Brown]: the Could [Leanne Harple]: say, okay. Our AP classes are gonna have twenty five, and our strategic reader classes at Colchester are gonna have fourteen. And I assume this will be in a way that it's not gonna be like a literally, you must have exactly this many boxes in every room. [Robert Hunter]: It's an average. [Leanne Harple]: Yeah. It's how that practicality works. [Robert Hunter]: Right. It's an average. [Leanne Harple]: You know, it's an average. And so isn't that also some sort of [Robert Hunter]: Get some ups. [Leanne Harple]: Administrator instructional instructional leadership of saying, okay. These are all the resources we have. We should be able we should be running larger sections of these things, and we need to find a way to be strategic with our funds and our staff to run smaller sections of these things. Again, this isn't a super theoretical framework that weights are working around, but that's part of the theory of weight. [Jana Brown]: I think you're right. [Chris Taylor]: It was Right. [Leanne Harple]: And that's how we should do. Of [Joshua Dobrovich]: our guests. [Peter Conlon]: So let's not get dive too deep into the initial class of it, but but that's a a good point. [Leanne Harple]: Yes. [Peter Conlon]: And and, you know, we do we the idea with waiting is that we are resourcing that school sufficiently so that you can address that. So a company almost becomes more of a a dependent adults. [Joshua Dobrovich]: Yes. That's what I'm saying. [Erin Brady]: Waste some money in the finance, which [Peter Conlon]: is why ratio is scary. [Jana Brown]: Yeah. [Leanne Harple]: Yeah. [Robert Hunter]: And sorry. You go. [Kate McCann]: Because, again, it's just just what you said. Right? Class size. How many kids are in the class? I'm talking about teachers. Right? So you can have thirty kids in the class, four teachers. [Leanne Harple]: Right. [Kate McCann]: Right? Like, it's not You [Jana Brown]: know what I'm saying? [Kate McCann]: Not saying, but, like, I'm I'm just thinking out loud. Right? Like, you might that's a way to re engineer it for a fifty kid class. That's not [Jana Brown]: Not almost the way [Peter Conlon]: it works. [Jana Brown]: Well, it often becomes [Kate McCann]: But if they're [Peter Conlon]: more of [Jana Brown]: an issue, you have too many adults. [Kate McCann]: Oh, I heard you [Jana Brown]: So So But [Peter Conlon]: now we we don't want advantage what a school Right. How much resources as possible. [Chris Taylor]: But we are about putting class as minimums that we put in this context. That's all I'm saying. [Peter Conlon]: I I I I want to micromanaging to this to each standard. Right? [Chris Taylor]: I just wanna keep in mind. I think your point. [Joshua Dobrovich]: If you really wanna go deeply sort of down that road, you also need to think about other issues like who's the teacher on record? What does it mean to co teach? What resources are we giving teachers to co teach if they're running the same classroom? Yeah. [Chris Taylor]: Can I ask a question about class size minimums? Are we expecting like, we heard from the secretary this morning about I I I'm gonna use my own word, exceptions to every rule. Is that what we're talking about here? Are we gonna be talking about not recommendations? We're talking about minimums, period. And what happens in a very rural area, are we going to have parts just like we do on borders and all that other stuff? Yeah. I just wanna [Peter Conlon]: put that because the point is well, I think you're already expanding on isolated school. [Chris Taylor]: Yeah. Yeah. [Peter Conlon]: I just hospital. [Jana Brown]: For very high needs. [Chris Taylor]: In some cases, there might be about high needs. Right. So the parameters. Alright. [Peter Conlon]: And do we do we go [Robert Hunter]: to when we say districts, do we say districts of what? Two to four [Emily Long]: thousand? Well, [Jana Brown]: larger than what's What is we [Peter Conlon]: The the two to four thousand is what the Superdents Association recommended to us based on research that's been done by the others. K? In we didn't talk about impediments to districts becoming bigger, But where where we run into trouble, Kevin, that we will need to talk about to solve is if you got a a supervisory, if you wanna turn into a district, so it's under one board, but that supervisory union has non if you think of the White River Valley Supervisory Union, [Chris Taylor]: it's got [Peter Conlon]: non operating districts, it's got hybrid operating districts, and it's got k twelve districts. Right. So how do you how do you you can't sort of, like, legally bring them all together because everybody's got something different. [Jana Brown]: So could a rule [Peter Conlon]: I'm using the word legally very generally. [Chris Taylor]: Right. Because we do have an option. [Jana Brown]: Because you could change what the rules are. Right? Yes. But that is currently an impediment Yes. To have different but it's something the legislature might be able to do something about. [Peter Conlon]: Because it would it would take it would take some some powerful and controversial legislation. Yes. [Chris Taylor]: So is all of this? Yeah. Just Right. Well Shouldn't be afraid of [Peter Conlon]: Class size minimums. Maybe not so much. [Chris Taylor]: I think you you might be quite surprised. [Peter Conlon]: Just basically eliminating choice, which is what you would have to do to make districts uniform. [Chris Taylor]: Well, we could designate is [Robert Hunter]: a little it's pretty [Chris Taylor]: We could we could allow designation with it. [Peter Conlon]: That's a little choice. Yeah. [Chris Taylor]: Well, it is, but it's still hard [Peter Conlon]: to handle. Alright. We'll talk a little bit about special and extraordinary cost. It's a you know, it's kind of a just a lurking issue out there, and and there's not necessarily a real answer to it except to understand the problem better. And I think as we've seen, the learning consortium really step into BOCES Yeah. As a way to step up in district publicly operated special ed systems. I just got [Leanne Harple]: turbocharged BOSKIS question. I mean, it's a scale issue too. [Jana Brown]: Yes. Right? You know? [Leanne Harple]: It is a scale. Handful of extremely high cost students. [Erin Brady]: You know? Yep. [Jana Brown]: And Right. [Peter Conlon]: If you only had one, you have really no choice but to put it in our district system. [Chris Taylor]: No. But they also know that the percentage of students receiving special ed or special services are much higher in public schools than than non eliminating the the therapeutic school. So Well, I just I just [Peter Conlon]: just wanted to add is why we should also look into why do we have so many students identified for extraordinary cost. Yeah. Yep. [Jana Brown]: We're looking to Is [Leanne Harple]: there and [Jana Brown]: so we're looking at extraordinary cost. Is there Like, what is the planning [Leanne Harple]: landscape for that subset of students? [Chris Taylor]: Thank you. [Leanne Harple]: No way. Is it is it Allstate? Is it [Peter Conlon]: It's it's it's Allstate, but I think but, I mean, the state gets money for special ed and developers, but it's a state thing. So it was it was Ravec can jump in and correct me if I'm wrong. But but when we created Act one seventy three, they created the census block, like, for special education. We said, but we will still have a highly [Jana Brown]: Yeah. [Peter Conlon]: Funded system that the state will take care of, basically, ninety five percent of the cost of extraordinary situations. So have we created an incentive to have more students identify Yeah. As super high needs [Chris Taylor]: so that you could qualify? [Jana Brown]: Yeah. So I don't know if this solution if this union relates, but does it come some of those extraordinary special ed costs could also be relieved some by scale. You know, we tried to have as you know, in district programs so that students you know, we had special programs in my school that were for the entire district. If your district's larger, if you have more scale, can you have more of those in house programs as opposed to going [Peter Conlon]: one seventy three? Well, we talk about turbocharging BOCES. That's what we're really trying to [Jana Brown]: do, [Peter Conlon]: to create a vehicle for sale. Like the learning consortium. [Jana Brown]: Yes. Well and [Emily Long]: you and I were [Leanne Harple]: we had testimony that day, Chris. I don't know. I'm forgetting what we're both very depressed afterwards. If it's felt like more and more districts are now creating their own in house programs or alternative. Maybe I'm confusing, but, like, alternative programs to be sort of fluid to move kids. But if everybody's doing that on their own [Jana Brown]: Right. [Leanne Harple]: Those are resources [Chris Taylor]: But but it but but it was a decision that was made under act one seventy three in in our testimony, as you'll remember, Peter, where where we know that kids are best served staying in their home district. So programs were created whether there's you know, we still have laws that we have to federal laws that we have to follow-up. You know, we they're best served in their home school district. So [Jana Brown]: Alright. I mean, just Okay. [Peter Conlon]: It's not an easy one. The only thing I can really come up with is, a, learn about the problem more. And do we, you know, really lean into both these as a as a way to try to bring those costs down. [Erin Brady]: I think that also just like universal wheels, we also need to make these decisions. I should point about about how the end fund is used. Right. [Jana Brown]: I was just gonna say that. [Leanne Harple]: Like, at the other bucket now of, like, [Erin Brady]: I know that's Will Ravi, is that the weeds or Or [Leanne Harple]: the f fund [Chris Taylor]: is money. Like, absolutely. [Peter Conlon]: We we we want to fudge. Now I would just say, you know, it's really easy to say, oh, let's move that out of the fudge. Right. It's gotta go someplace. We don't really we don't really, like, raise our tag raise our tag. It doesn't go [Jana Brown]: It doesn't reduce your cost drivers. It just shifts It doesn't reduce [Peter Conlon]: it's not. It disperses them. Yeah. But also, the way we operate, we will need to find savings in the general fund to make do it for those that you wanna move with. [Jana Brown]: Oh, sorry. Sorry. I was gonna say, philosophically, though, it [Joshua Dobrovich]: does give you the chance [Jana Brown]: to weigh those programs in the context of other general fund programs instead of saying we can only think about these things in the bucket of education. [Chris Taylor]: Education. Mhmm. [Jana Brown]: Where we know that we're gonna have to make hard choices that impact students. So [Robert Hunter]: Somebody was just saying the other day, I don't know if it was testimony or somebody at the table. They said they were talking to somebody. Maybe it's you, Peter, somebody a friend from Hawaii who said that that they're they don't pay they don't pay health care out of their Ed Fund. [Peter Conlon]: Oh, I I don't [Leanne Harple]: know. I haven't heard that. [Robert Hunter]: Somebody said that. [Peter Conlon]: I didn't hear that. But but, again, we can do whatever we want. We can. [Jana Brown]: But we still have [Chris Taylor]: to pay for it. [Peter Conlon]: Pay for it. Right? [Joshua Dobrovich]: Yeah. But at least it just takes the pressure off of, like, this is our Ed Fund. It's teachers driving up the cost. Let's hate on teachers. Let's hate on schools. [Jana Brown]: I mean, [Joshua Dobrovich]: maybe the loans are more [Chris Taylor]: than schools and agents. If I'm into that theory, do we just get rid of the Ed Fund? [Peter Conlon]: Well [Joshua Dobrovich]: Well, that's a good idea. [Chris Taylor]: Or all I'm trying to say is it doesn't really matter as long as we're you know, things are a target. Well, one of the things that's [Jana Brown]: been talked about is school construction. And sometimes that's a separate stream than the in some states. [Peter Conlon]: Yes. And I think it would have to be here too other than the bond of dollars. Right. But Yeah. We didn't talk about that in terms of the impediments to consolidation No. [Jana Brown]: Which is a huge one, which [Peter Conlon]: is a lack of a school construction program. [Jana Brown]: Sure. Mentioned. Because [Peter Conlon]: I think it's hard to tell people to consolidate without them being able to Right. Something there. They wanna consolidate it. Okay. [Leanne Harple]: Can I put early college Yeah? Here? Like, CTE or whatever. Like, and it's very important. College. State colleges. [Jana Brown]: Yep. Whatever it is. [Peter Conlon]: It well, is it an EdFun thing for early college? [Jana Brown]: Should we just say college? [Chris Taylor]: You say Yeah. When you say you put mental health cost there, are we saying just the cost of mental health, or are we talking about social services, period, in general? I mean, I I I don't I just feel like it's not we're we're narrowing the label of what outside of education costs are. We're saying only mental health. I think there's a lot of other social social services that we provide in our school districts around room. We're gonna I can explain it more, but beyond just mental health. Mental health is one of many. [Leanne Harple]: Right. We did have analysis last year where they Fifty million dollar increase in last year's budgets directly. [Chris Taylor]: And I and I'm not arguing that for that. But I'm just saying there's more in our budgets that are that social cert that provides social services in our schools that isn't necessarily just that particular social service [Peter Conlon]: slash mental health costs. [Joshua Dobrovich]: I think that we could also think about saving money on mental health costs besides just thinking about the money. Think about the drivers of mental health and lack of mental health, and what changes we could make. And I this is a very big broad statement. But, like, what changes we could make, like the cell phone bill or, like, more outside time, the way that we do things, the way that we support families that maybe are not cost how do I say what I'm saying? Cost related to not just reducing the amount of money because of the amount of need because we're making everyone better. Does that make sense? [Jana Brown]: It makes sense. Okay. Yes. Just hard to [Joshua Dobrovich]: So let's just do that. Qualify. [Peter Conlon]: Yeah. Let's just cure everybody if they're else. Mhmm. We're talking about health care costs because it's just hard. You know? We we are a very expensive state for health care costs. We can almost only talk about it exclusively and let's reduce the amount of health care we're providing. [Joshua Dobrovich]: Yeah. We can't do that. Or change the universal health [Peter Conlon]: care. Well, it is also fair to say, let's just call that out of our realm of expertise. [Chris Taylor]: Yeah. Yeah. [Peter Conlon]: And we do know that the health care needs. [Chris Taylor]: We can identify it as a challenge. [Robert Hunter]: Mhmm. [Erin Brady]: Yep. I don't know. Yeah. [Peter Conlon]: So, you know, if we were to kinda take this exercise and turn it into legislative language, what might we what might we think about and say? So let's just take an easy one. If articles of agreement are an impediment to consolidation, I think we can wave a magic wand and eliminate articles of [Chris Taylor]: agreement [Peter Conlon]: that the portions of articles of agreement that that are event [Robert Hunter]: Looking forward. We [Chris Taylor]: But but another I have to [Jana Brown]: to go to agreement to every So so so I'm just saying, you know, [Peter Conlon]: here are some things we could think about creating language towards as as immediate steps to move towards a more scaled [Erin Brady]: school system. Because regardless of how it turns out in the end, that is something that that happened. Yeah. Anywhere. [Chris Taylor]: Yeah. But is that the answer to the challenge, or is or are we talking about the clean slate that we have? And are we talking about just redrawing drawing lines and re and and merging districts, the articles of [Peter Conlon]: agreement would go away? Yes. It's Yeah. [Chris Taylor]: Away. I'm just trying to [Peter Conlon]: We are, I mean, we are at a at a point because we have a a timing issue, and we've got a legislative of of of a group of this I think our the entire group of as we call it, legislature wants to take some action this year on things that we can do. I'm not saying that we ignore what has been presented to us, but I think we can view it in a longer term scheme. But we also can't guarantee that we're get even gonna go to five districts and rewrite from scratch. So, therefore, what I'm saying is that we need to be thinking of working within our educational ecosystem that we have today and what can we do. But, really, just as we talked in our conversation with the administration, we got two two paths. They're gonna run parallel for a while until we decide that they merge or that they or they split and mark or one falls away. K. And so I think what we need to be saying is [Chris Taylor]: on the path of working within today's world, articles of agreement are impediment to closing schools. I'm in agreement with articles of agreement or impediment to closing schools. But when I look at that impediments to consolidation list there, I would say only one of them wouldn't be eliminated by redrawing district lines. I'm not talking about the five districts, but I'm talking about whatever we decide will be the right thing. Yeah. Articles of agreement with OA, community pressure might will always be here, but geography even should be addressed by that. Are we sure? Mixed delivery, the lack of structure. Well, we have we have not talked about I'm I'm just saying if we're gonna talk about writing legislation [Peter Conlon]: that you know, if are [Chris Taylor]: we gonna hit every one of those individually to write legislation? [Peter Conlon]: Or No. That's gonna do That's the question. I mean, we can all we can only take them on individually. Right. Are you are you suggesting that we start bigger and say [Chris Taylor]: yes. I'm suggesting we continue with the exercise as opposed to getting down into the what's right legislation to get the part of Well, [Peter Conlon]: I'm saying things that we can do. We're trying to make a a we're trying to compile a list of of the things that could go into legislation. [Jana Brown]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [Erin Brady]: I wanna be sure that we drive the lies, erase our. [Chris Taylor]: Well, I think if we go about it from or [Erin Brady]: a friend? [Chris Taylor]: Well, I I'm just saying if we go about it to re rethink our education system, we have a slight. We've been told that a bunch of times. [Peter Conlon]: You know, you you know, we're supposed to talk about it. Yes. Yeah. Either way. [Jana Brown]: Yes. Agree. What about we all agree? I agree that no matter what, just redrawing district lines doesn't necessarily reduce your portfolio of school buildings. So articles of agreement, it is an impediment where there's five districts, twenty five districts, a hundred nineteen districts. [Peter Conlon]: Well, articles of agreement are are [Chris Taylor]: They're illegal. Are upon contract. Yeah. [Jana Brown]: Right. Mhmm. [Chris Taylor]: Mhmm. I would have any other own. [Peter Conlon]: But I would say no matter what we do Something. If we redraw them, they cease to exist or we remove them, and if we're staying within the system, they're cap. And I guess I'll I'll bring up sort of the bigger idea that I just keep kicking around in my head, which is to say, you know, I think one of the impediments to consolidation, when you talk about community pressure And all of the things that go along with it is that continued, like, we need the legislature to tell us who should be open, who should be closed. So do we create a body that sits down with maps and data and all of that and makes a recommendation for the legislature to redraw lines or collapse districts so that schools can combine? That all I'm saying is just this is one tool that could could do that. And it could also act as the advisory commission for school construction because I think we at least have full agreement that consolidation doesn't really happen, a school construction program. [Joshua Dobrovich]: Are are we saying that we need the legislature to decide which schools should remain open and closed because that would be easier for, like, superintendents and principals and school boards, or are we saying it because we think that that would be more satisfactory to the people of Vermont? Because I'm not totally sure that some of the people in Vermont won't riot if we say we're [Peter Conlon]: gonna be a legislature. I would say the the first part of that more than the second. [Jana Brown]: Okay. And it's still about district lines, not about port buildings at that point. [Peter Conlon]: Right? Well, I mean, I what we're talking by him That's the first part. Just me as one member of eleven here. I see it as as buildings. Yeah. Yep. [Robert Hunter]: How did you phrase it yesterday? Base closure? [Peter Conlon]: Yeah. Yeah. Commission is similar to the federal base closure commission where it's a nonpartisan group of with expertise making the decision using data and maps and [Erin Brady]: all that, linking it back to the governor's proposal. That proposal is based on the same portfolio of the schools that we have in that one first without any closer distance. Right. [Robert Hunter]: I mean, on the other hand, though, I think it's kind of frightening what you know, the way they phrase it in here because they're clearly wanting to reduce the number of schools, but they're letting them eat each other rather than somebody, you know, being the adult in the room and saying, either we're getting a commission together or we know from our consultations with all the districts that this is how they would go if they didn't have articles of agreement. This this this would be the new regional middle school. This would be right. [Chris Taylor]: I mean But when you write when you when you operate those five districts, the area code of agreement aren't there. [Robert Hunter]: Right. They're nothing. Right. [Chris Taylor]: I mean, you're one district. So so that means the board could then make the decision that a board could today without the independent Are those of the green? [Peter Conlon]: That's correct. [Robert Hunter]: Yeah. [Peter Conlon]: So to your point your to your point, which is that it doesn't envision any change, what it does envision is the funding formula that's based on scale. Mhmm. So, you know, it it but it doesn't have weights for small schools. I'm not quite sure how that all [Jana Brown]: fits in. [Chris Taylor]: But it's still selling it's still setting up a system to to make that change. Right? I mean, there's a single board for each of those five districts. Five people, part time, those folks have the authority to close those schools, and that has been a goal, you know, it sounds like, of upscale, building scale from the administration. I think that's what their expectation is even if they're not saying it will. I think Right. Yeah. [Peter Conlon]: I think that is the expectation because the funding won't won't won't really support. [Chris Taylor]: And there's no local control around it anyway either. [Erin Brady]: I think that's been [Peter Conlon]: the the goal for [Jana Brown]: a while. [Erin Brady]: I know that's why we've got all these different acts and different. I don't think it's changed due to this proposal. [Chris Taylor]: To be very honest about [Robert Hunter]: that. Yeah. [Erin Brady]: That's accurate. [Peter Conlon]: Well, yeah, it's been it's been the method that we've been using, essentially, of, like, trying to kind of prompt and prod school boards into making these decisions by incentives or disincentives or funding changes or act four to six, and it hasn't really done much. [Jana Brown]: K. Things we can do. EQS? Yes. I heard a lot that that's where that should be asked, but what is our role? We don't make the rules. Right? [Peter Conlon]: That's right. It was strict. Well [Jana Brown]: long sales and EQS is there. That's where we We [Peter Conlon]: had we we had Beth talk to us a little bit the other day about how DQS could could be used for the scale as a unit. School size. [Erin Brady]: Class size. [Jana Brown]: The DQS. The DQS. He's he's talking about DQS. The DQS, not the EQS. I think [Peter Conlon]: if you if you look back at the superintendent's policy brief that we received, I think EQS was really where class size then was. [Jana Brown]: That's what I was wondering because that's been mentioned by some people that have come in. But I may be confusing DQS and EQS as being a vehicle for change. [Peter Conlon]: Yep. Yeah. When we look at cost drivers and then edge fund issues, We can call what's in the ed fund a cost driver. If it's something that isn't, let's call it, necessary or deemed necessary, some people believe universal school meals are not necessary. Like, just say that we've always provided school meals. So we just moved all that out of the individual budgets and put it at the top of the head front. That [Chris Taylor]: ratio doesn't require any of that we do it. [Peter Conlon]: Is early college it's not an entitlement. It's something we just offer, and it costs us a lot of money. It's an important revenue stream for the state college system. But it's the kind of thing where you can say, well, we're just not gonna do early college anymore because guess what? We have an affordability crisis. We promised Vermonters we're going to get a handle on what we're spending. [Chris Taylor]: And if I could also the third one, which is we have a pre k twelve education system, and early college is after that. I'm more than happy to consider, you know, adding two years of associate's degree for if we want, but that's what we're talking about here. Where when we're talking about universal meals and we're talking about transportation and those other things, that's still within the pre k twelve. This is with not with pre k twelve. [Peter Conlon]: Right. And so we could say that they believe early college isn't important. Or we're above the state, but we're not funding it up. [Chris Taylor]: Can't fund but [Peter Conlon]: we're not funding it back to the education fund. The legislature is to make decision. And option. What's that? It's an option. Yep. And if it is a if it is a an assistance to the state college system, masquerading as an educational program, then we can also just be honest to say we're gonna give the state college system four million dollars out of the general. Mhmm. Yeah. Great. So that's just sort of Reality. What I want to think about. It is it is an extra, and it is an extra that has repercussions. So it's got some obviously, got some benefit as well. Yeah. [Robert Hunter]: But as somebody pointed out, so many [Jana Brown]: of the schools have dual enrollment as well. So the [Robert Hunter]: kids get exposure to early college [Chris Taylor]: without that credit. Yes. Early early college credit. [Peter Conlon]: I think that's their Right. [Robert Hunter]: Dual dual enrollment. Yeah. [Peter Conlon]: And dual enrollment is not a replacement for your senior year high school. [Chris Taylor]: No. Right. [Robert Hunter]: No. It's a bonus. It's just [Chris Taylor]: one of the earliest giving out. [Robert Hunter]: Yeah. Right. It's not early college. Right. [Peter Conlon]: Maybe we wanna change geography? Can I is there [Jana Brown]: Yeah? Change geography. Act as a check on me. [Peter Conlon]: This sort of base closure idea, am I just, like, off the rails, obviously? [Emily Long]: No. I don't [Robert Hunter]: have to say that. I mean But to I think that [Leanne Harple]: one of the challenges in all of this is that, like, what are you working towards? And I've had this conversation, you know, with people in I'm in a big suburban district, but this conversation with people in parts of the state, like, close schools. And it's it's a loss. It's like a death of sorts. You know? It is a cultural community kind of death. And so to the extent that you can, you know, do that with dignity, that you can plan for it, that you can have some kind of the way that council rural development comes in helps, like, a community sort of envision what is their future, what are their assets, you know, what might want to do to sort of find other ways either physically to use a building or just culturally to be a community still that's different than when you had that school there that's been there for a hundred some years. And Yeah. So it's that and and some of this is probably not education spending. Like, this is community development stuff. This is economic development stuff. It's housing, but it's the how do you do the hard thing and also help with someone on put a community on a path to, you know, some healing and something else. [Peter Conlon]: Well, so we've talked about a a number of things here. One, as part of a school construction program offering basically just grants to communities that need to re to re re But I [Leanne Harple]: don't know that that that's I I guess that depends how we fund school construction, but that's putting us right back in the Ed Fund issues of, like we're talking about, like, the state's economic development community identity, super important things, but if we call it Ed spending [Robert Hunter]: Well, Ed [Chris Taylor]: spending Well, Ed development. Yeah. That's not [Peter Conlon]: all. It would be part of that sort of seed money that is general fund dollars. I would also just offer this as a thought that when we do talk about we we could create a base closure commission and define their roles anyway we like. We could say, and you are only to look at middle school and high school, understanding that the small elementary school at this point is a community asset that people feel very. And if you combine that with class size minimums, that then also leads to some policy changes where a set of small elementary schools relative relatively near to one another might say, that school's gonna be ten one two. That school's gonna be three four five. We're gonna have half the number of teachers doing that over the previous [Erin Brady]: yes. Couple of questions for clarification. The base closing commission. This is separate than the district size and lot. [Leanne Harple]: That's what I'm just I don't know. Right. Is that the one that's also figuring that? That's my question. [Robert Hunter]: Wouldn't we ask them to propose [Jana Brown]: That's my question. [Robert Hunter]: Two to four thousand. [Erin Brady]: Because then if you're doing that, you're pushing anything we do off at least a year. [Robert Hunter]: Oh, yeah. [Erin Brady]: Because okay. Right. Right. And then then that whole foundation for everything's fine in the district size as far as I [Peter Conlon]: That could be better. [Erin Brady]: So that was one thing. The other thing is, who's gonna actually wanna serve on a commission that's gonna tell people that's [Peter Conlon]: Alright. Well, first of all, let's be clear. I think it's your first of all, your first point is excellent. Yeah. Let's let's remember that. Two, we would still do we would still have to make the decision. Right. [Jana Brown]: They would make a recommendation to the legislature. [Erin Brady]: And then I absolutely love Brett Brady's idea if I'm getting it right, then if we do come up with a commission, which could be a part of this whole whole process, even after district lines and has any proposals for and have a commission looking at this kind of stuff, also envision and help the community with what they can repurpose that asset into. Right? And that I love that idea. [Peter Conlon]: So when when we sort of lead the legislature, those of us organizing this legislative session, said, okay. How are we gonna tackle this? That issue, in particular, came up, and that that has been assigned to the commerce committee to to sort of start thinking about that. [Chris Taylor]: No. Where it plays for? Mhmm. [Erin Brady]: So the problem here is [Kate McCann]: to this [Robert Hunter]: is a lovely piece. I know. First, I thought this is just in my head. Can you hear too? There's nothing I can [Leanne Harple]: But it will take many choices. I mean [Peter Conlon]: Yes. [Leanne Harple]: Cost for, like, even closing things is going [Peter Conlon]: Right. To do [Leanne Harple]: well is also gonna cost some [Peter Conlon]: Right. If you money. [Leanne Harple]: So if we're all kind of honest with each other and constituents about the reality here, you know, we we can't just shutter a bunch of buildings and, you know, throw a lock on the door. We've saved money. I mean, you're you're gonna have [Jana Brown]: to repurpose. [Leanne Harple]: You're gonna have let setting society at the cultural identity things. So there's cost in this. [Chris Taylor]: Yeah. Need to partner with [Erin Brady]: you guys on this whole process. [Peter Conlon]: Yeah. I just wanna be clear. I think that a base closure closure commission needs to have at the top of its list of guiding principles, expanding opportunity for kids. You know? And I I think about I think about that, you know, larger, particularly high schools, offer more opportunities for kids. [Kate McCann]: It doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense to do the commission after [Peter Conlon]: the lines are drawn for [Kate McCann]: the for whatever blog those lines are. [Peter Conlon]: And who's drawing the lines? [Leanne Harple]: I think that's where we're stuck. [Erin Brady]: Well, I'm saying because then [Kate McCann]: what they'll do is they will look in those lines and make decisions instead of as a statewide decision because it like, that may start guiding some of their decisions. Well, I have this block. I plan with these many schools. This is what I'm gonna work in this. I I love the legislature. [Peter Conlon]: I would call us ill equipped Well, you have people to to start to allow lines from scratch as opposed to And I guess setting up a group of experts to do it to make a recommendation. [Kate McCann]: A different group of people to see better talk about schools, not commission on base closures, but the commission on district loans. [Peter Conlon]: Like because that was quicker. [Kate McCann]: And the other one can be a longer process after. [Jana Brown]: Brings you back somewhat to geography. And I think my concern would be you have to do them at the same time. You have to consider what your portfolio of school buildings is so that within your district, she draw lines that have high schools and middle schools and [Leanne Harple]: But you maximize the existing Right. I think you have to kinda do it together. Build some new or some retrofitting, but you, you know yeah. Your your minds are acknowledging the current reality and maximizing our infrastructure that still has any life left on the highway. [Chris Taylor]: I think it's So [Leanne Harple]: that's that's why I get stuck on. Are these is is this commission doing or whatever? [Chris Taylor]: I think another impediment to to school closures is the you articulated it perfectly that there's a that there's a perception, and I'm gonna call it a perception intentionally, that it's a kills a community. It destroys a community. And I would love to know because I've experienced school closure in a community, very small school and a very small community in my SU. And that wasn't the outcome, but that was the fear. And I would love to know if that there's been other small schools that have closed. And I just think that, you know, as we're working forward with all this, no matter who is based, closing commission, or whatever, we we actually need to be talking about reality and how we overcome that perception. And and that goes along with how do you create community. It's not about your school. How do you create community? What we're talking about the commerce committee working on and how helping communities repurpose their buildings or tear them down and, you know, create something new. Because I have a front page of my local paper today was a plan that included the closure of the school that the community just closure and use of the space, the land, not the building of the school that the community just voted no to close. Right? So there's these conversations are ongoing. And if that plan came to fruition, if they thought that they could do, I the vote would have been quite different. But there's goals in every community of building community. I think we just need to find a way to build that as opposed to the fear. [Peter Conlon]: Okay. How do we do that? [Chris Taylor]: That's your job, Peter. Your chair. [Leanne Harple]: They didn't read [Peter Conlon]: it out. Just kidding. No. But it's I don't know. To me, it's it's like [Chris Taylor]: I think we we are we are capable of doing that. [Peter Conlon]: What What we are capable of doing is providing resources for our community to do that on its own. [Chris Taylor]: But it is our job to be careful about how we talk about school closures here. Messaging? I I think it's really important that we acknowledge that there is fear out there, but that we're gonna I I think we really ought to have this conversation with the commerce committee or whatever because I've watched this unfold. I brought this up the other day yesterday or whenever it was for a reason. It is a huge impediment. [Peter Conlon]: Right. But if if if we're trying to achieve scale and we achieve scale by not having as many school buildings [Joshua Dobrovich]: Mhmm. [Peter Conlon]: I mean, there's a certain amount of Band Aid ripping off that has to happen. Right. I mean, I think it's gonna be hard to solve for loss without providing opportunity for gain, but I'm not sure we can tell a community how it is gonna feel better about itself. [Chris Taylor]: We can talk about it different, and we can also talk about what your suggestion was, which was did we provide a certain number of dollars for a community who's going started on the next phase of your loss? [Peter Conlon]: I would say absolutely. [Chris Taylor]: Question. So that is real. That's what we can do. That's one thing. Could [Leanne Harple]: I wanna push on your base closure, your rack here. [Peter Conlon]: Yep. [Leanne Harple]: It's there. Philosophically, I hear it. I like it. I think we even talked about it in this meeting last year. But then I also hear and fear okay. We know that the problems we've known many of them a long time. We're now creating another group to make decisions that just have to get made. One, what is the how much further out does that push the timeline, and how much and the perception of that. [Peter Conlon]: I am so open to alternative ideas. [Leanne Harple]: I know. Maybe we [Peter Conlon]: are those late on me. [Leanne Harple]: Gonna say, stand it up tomorrow. Just do it. I fear. And there. One month. Walk to the road now. I know. But, yeah, like, there's that expediency thing that Yep. [Robert Hunter]: I don't think [Erin Brady]: I don't think necessarily the the commission that you're talking about, basically, necessarily has to push the timeline out. I think if there's a way that we can come up with the district team and still start to move forward, I think this could come into play even after or kind of simultaneously. Because then they can go in and they can start making some decisions. I was kinda looking at broader broader picture. But [Leanne Harple]: So then back to the back. That's what I'm so sorry. Who draws the lines? Who's the second? [Peter Conlon]: Well, so let's we've got [Jana Brown]: the the question I always ask for them [Peter Conlon]: to ask as chairs, who do we need to hear from to answer some of these questions? Right. [Robert Hunter]: We need to I we we need to know where all [Jana Brown]: the schools are, what the school populations are. Right? [Chris Taylor]: They all do buildings. [Peter Conlon]: Yeah. Yeah. And now we are doing. [Erin Brady]: And we have some proposals out there. You know? Mhmm. We have some possibilities. We have county lines. We have CTE lines. We have all sorts [Peter Conlon]: of Right. [Erin Brady]: So we do have some that we can start looking at and trying to formulate some decisions. [Robert Hunter]: Yeah. [Leanne Harple]: Let's give Can I ask can can I ask along the lines of that? [Jana Brown]: A second. What starts now? [Leanne Harple]: In in the spirit of open discussion, what people's feelings are about sort of district size and that, you know, like, PICUS numbers are modeled on districts of about thirty nine hundred. I think I read through that report, and it says the average district in the United States today is, like, three thousand seven hundred ten students or something like that. We have some research that Chelsea shared of, you know, sort of where your efficiencies are and then when you start to lose efficiencies, the current reality we live in of what size districts are. Like, in my mind, I'm feeling fairly comfortable with the concept of most of our districts being at least twenty five hundred up to great. We could get to five or six a couple places, and that makes sense maybe, but in that range. But that's in that's what's in my head, and so I kind of wonder what's in all of our size. Of course, the boundaries matter and where they are. And it shouldn't I fairly do it because it's like, we have to have that many kids in it. So we try to struggle a little bit more this way. We do some things that make sense to me. [Peter Conlon]: Principle. That's most But [Jana Brown]: Yeah. And I so [Leanne Harple]: I wonder because there's that to me is a bit of a middle ground between where we are now and five districts that have been proposed and one that's particularly large. [Chris Taylor]: So so many of your districts in your region are gonna be not changed all that much. But districts and I'm saying Yeah. Many may not change, but I can tell you that will significantly change some more rural Yeah. Districts Yeah. In the state. And so I just wanna make sure that we're thinking it. [Jana Brown]: I'll dive in on my gut feeling not having all of the information because I Go back to my gut. [Peter Conlon]: My gut. [Jana Brown]: You know, [Leanne Harple]: go back to what I said [Jana Brown]: a long time ago. If the overall vision for Vermont to solve our problems is to change our demographics, and we want young families with children to move in, you need to have some growth room in your districts. You know, if you set your districts at twenty thousand kids and all of a sudden people flock to Vermont, You know? So around that five thousand range in my head right now kind of makes some sense because you could grow a bit more. [Peter Conlon]: It it seems to me that Maybe. Seems to me that the policy brief we got from Superdent Association and Pankaj's almost line up, both both based on research in that two to four or twenty nine hundred. [Emily Long]: Thirty nine thirty five hundred. Yeah. [Jana Brown]: And then you could expand a little bit as compared to [Peter Conlon]: Dan. Yeah. [Jana Brown]: Well, that's what problem we wanna have. Right? [Erin Brady]: The so where it'd be, like, before the four thousand, I think we figured out the other day. It's about twenty one twenty one districts. But when I moving forward with with test one, I think I heard from the secretary and the deputy secretary that they can model Yes. Some numbers for us. Right? So what I would like to see because our district sizes is going to affect everything else that this proposal that we're gonna have to decide a lot of stuff on, affects everything that so what I'd like to see is I'd like to see they've all obviously, given us the five district model. So they're I'd like to see the the some of the other size, like, twenty five, the twenty, the twenty one. I'd like to see, you know, county what it would be for county districts, what it would be for the twenty some of the other proposals that we've seen. Okay. And how that affects everything else up there. [Leanne Harple]: Yeah. Shark tank pitched every [Jana Brown]: time it [Leanne Harple]: looks like their district. [Peter Conlon]: Exactly. Got it. I keep saying, okay. Are we gonna are we then gonna take that information and do something with it in the short amount of time that we have? Or or or is it better done by somebody else? [Robert Hunter]: I'm with Kate and Josh. [Jana Brown]: Just just do it. We have to [Erin Brady]: do it. I have the Band Aids. And I think that I'm not ready to say we're gonna put this on the air, personally. [Emily Long]: Yeah. Yeah. [Peter Conlon]: We're just doing which which would sorry. We're gonna push it back against five basis [Kate McCann]: But, like, you know, like, there's the what is the eleven districts that's part of [Jana Brown]: the school board. K. SPI region [Peter Conlon]: Which [Kate McCann]: are all relatively the same size, but I mean, since that might be the smallest one [Robert Hunter]: that we do that. [Jana Brown]: I used to say twenty [Peter Conlon]: years ago. So we have time to to just [Jana Brown]: relax before the floor. Get there on time to get your gold star. [Peter Conlon]: I I just wanna say Friday Yeah. By the way, we have testimony coming in about another state and how they went through redistricting. Alright. What state? What state? Montana. Montana. Yeah. So doesn't mean [Kate McCann]: I'll kinda make you bigger. [Peter Conlon]: Given given what you all have said, who can we hear who can best be sitting up there to help guide us? [Kate McCann]: That'd be the JFOs instead of instead of having, like, ability to change data and do that. So what is [Peter Conlon]: it what is the input? What is the output? And is the input to say, what does it look like for fourteen districts? [Kate McCann]: And then what does that look like for a foundation formula [Chris Taylor]: Back end. [Jana Brown]: Right? Because those [Kate McCann]: two are the beginnings. [Peter Conlon]: That pre just that pre assumes a foundation form. [Kate McCann]: But just saying, like, it right. Because if everything's based off of five Right. Right, you you would, in theory, put the number in for twenty two, and then everything would just shift accordingly. [Peter Conlon]: I I get a little concerned about analysis paralysis when Yeah. And sort of save ourselves. And I this this is me being, like, no data. I don't need any data to know that if we have if we have scale and fewer people, we're gonna save money. So trying to just But but but that's a gut that is legislating by that, I suppose. [Chris Taylor]: And that is not a not necessarily a reality. [Peter Conlon]: But so if we if we were to [Jana Brown]: bring a JFO and say, if we [Peter Conlon]: did this many districts or districts of this size, let's say, how does that affect the foundation form of the numbers? Well, what which foundation form, first of all, if we're working with three. We got the the AIR, the APA. Maybe just those two. [Joshua Dobrovich]: I wonder if it might be helpful to hear from some of the really smaller people who are in the school communities that we're gonna decide for them that they're closed? Like, things like select board chairs or principles of our smallest schools or I don't even know how you would do this, but parents? [Peter Conlon]: So I I would say we have to, number one. But number two is does that not happen till if we go with the base closer commission, they give us a report where we are that we have to vote on. Is that the time that we do that as opposed to early meeting engagement? [Joshua Dobrovich]: Maybe unless that is too late to realize that, wow, this was not as good an idea as we thought that it was like. Yeah. I just I'm not I'm not quite so convinced that telling people we've made the decision for you really is gonna go well for [Emily Long]: us. May not. [Peter Conlon]: Oh, it's not for Walter. [Leanne Harple]: It's not for Walter. [Robert Hunter]: There's no question it won't. [Jana Brown]: But it it is going that will have [Peter Conlon]: it is going to be extremely painful, and it's gonna test our courage. Yeah. [Erin Brady]: Take your point on the analysis purposes. [Robert Hunter]: Not not [Erin Brady]: original. No. But could we at least get, like, like Yeah. Could we at least say, like, counties? [Chris Taylor]: Like Yeah. Okay. Yeah. [Leanne Harple]: County or [Erin Brady]: CTO just to see [Peter Conlon]: so I I I in that case, I would say if folks would sort of go away tonight, tomorrow, come back and say so, you know, county has a bit of a challenge because county lines cut up school districts that currently exist. Yeah. I'm not sure what the VSBA lines do. I think they may hold school districts together, but that's another thing. [Erin Brady]: And what's that even? Would I don't know. Yeah. [Chris Taylor]: They hold SUs together. They They hold us to [Peter Conlon]: use together. So would people like that as a struggle? [Kate McCann]: Well, more. [Jana Brown]: Is there any benefit to looking at the CTE [Peter Conlon]: Or CTE. [Jana Brown]: So that you have a CTE in every district? [Chris Taylor]: Important. Mhmm. [Erin Brady]: Well [Jana Brown]: because I know there's issues about CTE funding. Yes. This is [Leanne Harple]: So check And it's, like, seventeen I think that [Robert Hunter]: That needs to be sorted out. [Leanne Harple]: Conversation. Either we all have to have or, like, check with do we need to have with ways and means? Because they've been digging deep into that foundation framework that's been proposed, what the assumptions are, and what it be in the. And so we're kind of, [Robert Hunter]: like We're [Peter Conlon]: starting to go off on our own. [Leanne Harple]: We're going off on our own here. And, obviously, it's the the model's built on governance things, but there's also a lot of other assumptions in that model that may not some of us may not agree with. It may not be attainable against the current reality that that would require other changes beyond just districts. So I think, to me, this is I I'm not sure if it's testimony so much as it's sports. We gotta see where they are and understand better where they are. [Jana Brown]: Well, struggle. Yep. Because that The process. [Kate McCann]: Do we know do we know if they or should we ask them if we don't know that if they have had a new model or remodeling done? [Robert Hunter]: I will [Chris Taylor]: I will I will I think [Peter Conlon]: answer these questions. I'll have an answer for you tomorrow. [Kate McCann]: Because, I mean, they may have already done exactly what [Peter Conlon]: I'll take your question and your questions to and find a good answer for us. We should [Jana Brown]: probably have to know. [Chris Taylor]: But he's not guessing that [Jana Brown]: we should have, like, a sign [Peter Conlon]: of partners. [Jana Brown]: Ways and Means. I have one. I have [Peter Conlon]: one. Okay. [Robert Hunter]: I would [Peter Conlon]: just say attack any ways and means for the information that you [Jana Brown]: want. Yes. [Chris Taylor]: Is it gonna be? [Jana Brown]: And they give a budget for me and then Uh-huh. [Peter Conlon]: Annie, do we have do we have three time follow-up? [Jana Brown]: Yes. Three time? [Chris Taylor]: So, of course, blossoms. [Jana Brown]: Eleven thirty eight and a half, and then [Peter Conlon]: Alright. Eleven thirty, we will continue this conversation. Hopefully, everybody, if there is information you can pursue on your own between now and tomorrow, please do. Don't be afraid to ask the people we often see sitting in the room for help with that. So, for example, if you're like, what's looking at the VSBA numbers? Somebody please say, hey. Could you send us a copy of your [Chris Taylor]: students? I'm early, Noma. [Erin Brady]: Great. I [Jana Brown]: have we have the map. I just have the [Peter Conlon]: If if if anybody has map Just c t e regions. If you get their hands up. We could ask, hey. See if that exists. I mean Alright. So maybe start printing these out. Laying them out. But, again, I will just say that I get a little concern that in our rush to to do a job and get out of here and answer Vermonters' concerns all by the end of May, We don't do good work, but I'm I'm happy to go down this path so that we [Jana Brown]: get a better sense of [Peter Conlon]: check. [Emily Long]: I'm sorry. There's so many educators around this table. There's no way we don't do good work. [Kate McCann]: I just talked to each other. [Peter Conlon]: We have the time that you could [Chris Taylor]: I I'm gonna agree with you a hundred percent on what you said about the timing. And then I would also say that while we're approaching this this challenge that we've got in front of us, are we placing the needs of students first? [Peter Conlon]: Yeah. [Chris Taylor]: Or are we placing the cost savings that we anticipate? We I'm hearing it in the room that we think we think I say that with we think well, that the you know, tackling these cost drivers will lower costs, and I have no way of believing that at this moment in time. So I just wanna make sure that we're very clear as we're moving forward that why we're why we're going forward. I I know we keep saying to our drivers that if [Peter Conlon]: we if we had the power to reduce, would save money. If we could reduce the cost of health care Absolutely. Save money. We could reduce the cost [Chris Taylor]: of special ed. Without our control on the health care thing. But but special ed, little less so because we've already done some work there. But I'm just gonna go back to Well Just get it. Closing I I think closing schools, the assumption is we're gonna save money, and we're gonna lower our staff. That was not my experience when in my just speaking personally, in my district, when we said we were gonna close two of three elementary schools, we did not reduce that. Maybe by one person because we couldn't. And that if we were gonna provide the same education in a single building and lose the two schools. You'd be surprised at how little we saved. And I'm not trying to say there wasn't savings. There will be savings, but I thought there was gonna be lots of savings in the So is minimal savings? [Peter Conlon]: Going down to half? [Chris Taylor]: No. It's a it's it's a reality that I want us to if we're going to go out there and say this is we're gonna do this and it's gonna save us money, then I think we're gonna we need to know it. We we absolutely need to know that, and I don't think that we do yet. And I think we haven't heard that from the administration on their proposal either. [Peter Conlon]: Well, their proposal is based on a foundation form that is based on scale. Mhmm. Sure. And well, so [Robert Hunter]: just to say that. [Chris Taylor]: But it's more on yes. But it's more on bending the cost curve. And because a lot of things they're putting in there Yes. [Peter Conlon]: Are good cost. But they've already said it will save a hundred and thirty. [Chris Taylor]: Hundred and eighty. [Peter Conlon]: Should we [Jana Brown]: Hundred and eighty three. [Peter Conlon]: Should we [Robert Hunter]: Maybe we maybe we frame our goals like this. We're working in concert with what our taxpayers want, what the governor wants to streamline our system and create a better educational better education opportunities for our kids. Right? With with a lot with that in mind, that's how we attack this. Right? Because as we've said, a bigger high school means more opportunities for kids. Right? I mean, all of that. So we keep the kids at the forefront, but we say, we're going to work, and we're gonna streamline things. [Emily Long]: And I just got the go ahead today to teach two brand new statistics classes at u thirty two. So I need more kids. [Robert Hunter]: Excited. [Emily Long]: I am a little bit excited. Like, I never thought [Leanne Harple]: I never thought they were gonna [Jana Brown]: get approved, so I'm like, oh. [Chris Taylor]: We we have an affordability problem. [Peter Conlon]: Absolutely. We need to be looking at ways to save money, and we can't we can't shy away from that message. Mhmm. [Robert Hunter]: Right. But we say this is totally [Chris Taylor]: agreement with you. But if if we're gonna be asked to go make major governance changes, the folks who elected me and many of you are going to expect, if they're going to be asked to do the many things that we're talking about doing here, they're gonna expect to see lower costs. And now now what we were told, and I'm very being very specific about this, what we were told is we want our property tax rates to go down. That does not mean Right. You know, lower costs. It means I want my low property tax rates going down. I can't interpret that for my consideration. Make all of that happen. I'm not Totally open to some cashier stuff. I'm trying to be very realistic about how we move. [Peter Conlon]: Yeah. But [Jana Brown]: but Not [Peter Conlon]: If if we if we don't change anything, nothing's going to change. Yep. [Leanne Harple]: Well, there's also the cost. Again, we're not doing anything also has a cost. Just the even all of our I'm under no illusion that we're gonna deliver some gazillions of dollars of savings. Yeah. But the longer we operate with scale issues that we know, we have extensive testimony. Are they there are some scale issues in our system? And I I think that is just an undeniable reality, and we have, again, extensive testimony to that. And so, also, the longer that goes on, whatever the math term is, like, compounding interest here or the it it those are it's bending the cost curve because those costs are continuing to mount as well. It is not as you know, palatable in a political sales pitch, certainly, as, like, you owe them a cut, but it's a reality. And it's that's the hard job we have as the More of us. Policymakers in this time, [Jana Brown]: you know. [Leanne Harple]: Like, the hard work they did on pensions. It's the you know, there are some of these things that are they're not a clear, like, boom. Here's your savings. But it's if you don't, there's lots of other risks of just increased cost too. [Chris Taylor]: So my point was not to say we shouldn't move forward. I want us to move forward with the correct goals that we all agree on and the reality of how we're going to have to message us and bring our communities on board. [Peter Conlon]: It's all I'm saying. Right. But be clear and consistent message. Yes. We can't say we're on the side. We wanna achieve scale, but first, we need to do the it it's gotta be a little bit more less equivocation. [Erin Brady]: But I do think we could [Peter Conlon]: you know, I will go back to say, there are opportunities to do scale and improve opportunities. [Robert Hunter]: And and [Chris Taylor]: we should message it that way. Yes. That should be opportunities first. [Peter Conlon]: Thank you all for a good Thank you. Very good discussion. Good. Hard discussion. It's gonna get harder. [Emily Long]: Oh, yeah. [Peter Conlon]: Yes, it does. [Kate McCann]: Because we're [Peter Conlon]: not all we're doing we're doing pretty well. So let's let's hold there and get to the floor.

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