SmartTranscript of HCI-2025-02-27-9:20 AM

[Chair Alice Emmons]: It is Thursday, February twenty seventh, and this committee is still alive, but we're all struggling with a cold. And, but this morning, we're gonna spend some time with Sharon Scott, who's the chief financial and operating officer for the Vermont State College System. So, Sharon, why don't you come on up? We're talking about the situation at DTC. For the committee, there's also money in our capital budget of about five million, very short, for over the two years for a boiler replacement up in Johnson at the Johnson campus. So we really need to get more of a background information on what's happening with the VTC situation and also figure out which of the two are more of a priority. So, Sharon, it's all yours, and welcome. Thank you for coming. [Sharon Scott]: So, well and, madam chair, thank you for inviting me. So for the record, I'm Sharon Scott, chief financial and operating office for the Vermont State Colleges System. I appreciate having the opportunity to talk about this project. Just a a little bit of background for you. I listened to the testimony from last week, and, had the opportunity to really think about and make sure that I fully understood, the situation that we have at the Randolph campus. So in twenty seventeen, we entered into a fifty year ground lease with BGS to be able to allow them to be able to construct the environmental and ag lab at the Randolph campus, which was formerly Vermont Technical College. The the lease itself is fifty years. It's a one dollar per year is the lease payment. So it's it's it's not touching too much of the state's coffers. And there is an additional fifty year optional lease that the state can enter into for the exact same rate. That plan for building the Vail Lab in Randolph included not only the building itself, which was intended to provide the opportunity to do a wide range of services that addressed human, animal, environmental health while also promoting commerce was also to create a standalone biomass plant. And that went through the full process of act two fifty permitting, and had that additional, opportunity to be able to provide all of the heating and steam needs for Vail with the potential for excess steam for the Randolph campus. In twenty eighteen, it became evident that that plant, was not going to be ready in time for bail occupancy. And an engineer from PGS identified that the VSC had excess capacity in the heating system at Vermont Tech, and we agreed. So we arrived at a temporary agreement between the state of Vermont, BGS and Vermont State Colleges in order to provide heat to the Vail building. That agreement's purpose was simply to provide heat. It did not stipulate specific pounds per square inch nor did it stipulate any additional terms other than to say that we would provide the same level of heat to the Vail building that we provide to the rest of the campus. So that's what those terms were. It additionally identified for us what those services would be and how the VSC would be compensated. And the primary terms of the relationship were that, the VSC would be made whole for the purchase of the steam. And so it through a whole bunch of legal terms, but really what it works out to be is that each year we go through a process to identify exactly how much steam the bale building is using proportional to the total amount of steam that's being produced out of our plant. In the most recently completed fiscal year, because we only do this one time per year because the calculation is pretty arcane, It was seventeen point two percent of all steam produced by our heat plant was generated and consumed by the Vail building. [Troy Headrick]: Seventeen point two. [Sharon Scott]: And so that particular set of activities allowed us to be able to produce for bail many of the things that they would need. The original temporary term was three years in order to be able to allow the opportunity for BGS to be able to build a biomass facility, and it was intended to be temporary. The expectation is that there would be optional two year terms contingent upon mutual consent between the parties, between the VSC and, BGS. And, it was scheduled to terminate when the biomass was completed. It was confirmed that that plant met all of the needs for Vail and any excess requirements for, the Randolph campus if they were determined, and that a new heat purchase agreement was established, that would replace the existing one, that we had in place. That building went online in twenty nineteen. And within the first year, it was very clear that the level of service that we could provide for the building, as well as the timing of those services and the type of service was not consistent with the building's occupants. So, for example, you heard last week from director Aja, that they identified that the auto plates require fifty PSI. Our our environment caps out at forty eight. And in fact, for our own campus, we actually produce to a maximum of forty PSI and typically less than that. Additionally, you heard that Vale's needs for consistent access to steam during the summer months is important for a lot of reasons for the work that they do. But at that time, our boilers aren't functioning. We don't have a need to run steam between late April, early May, depending on how late our winter goes, and the end of September. You also heard that because the avail needing heat that we have been running our boilers during the summer months on a short cycle. And, that that short cycling actually limits the useful life of the boilers because they're not designed to do that. We're producing enough steam in order to be able to send it over to Vail, but then we're having to shut the boilers down. And you also heard from the lab director that we don't share with them when, there's a change in the PSI or service. And that's because that's we are not operating at a twenty four seven operation like a utility. But nor was there an expectation that we direct a specific PSI. So it's true that we're not equipped to provide the high pressure that Vale needs, and we are short cycling our boilers, and we are reducing the useful life of our equipment. We also don't run a twenty four by seven point, and we don't monitor PSI. But we partnered with BGS for these last few years to make sure that we provide the service as best as we can to the Vail building because it's important. And in fact, at the end of the first three years, we actually approached you. Yes. And said, we don't think we're able to provide you with the service that you need, and we recommended termination of the agreement. I think that might be what had triggered BGS's request to look at, you know, looking at an alternative activity. We've met with members of the administration. They brought up when we were doing our budget hearing with them last fall that this was a proposal that was coming forward. And we shared that we're comfortable with a potential change if BGS needed to move their support for Vail into its own independent building. But it's our understanding that what BGS is proposing is installing summer boilers. Remember, again, the summer boilers are only to be used and then modification of our existing boilers from number four fuel to number two fuel. And we believe that this is a really sound proposal because it addresses a few different issues. It addresses the short cycling, which is reducing the useful life of those boilers in that facility. It allows us to have greater energy efficiency, which not only reduces the cost for this VSC, but also the cost that the state of Vermont is paying to heat the bale lab. And it also reduces the amount of cost that you would have associated with building a whole separate infrastructure for a biomass facility. So as I mentioned last year, BGS, paid for seventeen point two percent of all the steam that was produced. That amount was a little more than two hundred and thirty five thousand dollars. And that was also inclusive of us needing to rent a boiler for the summer because we had to take we had to do some significant maintenance on those boilers in the summer, and yet we were still required to provide that scheme to support the lab. And so it included the state paying for temporary boilers to be available in that summer of twenty twenty three to support that particular work. So, we roughly estimate that were we to replace our full heating plant within the Vermont State Colleges specifically to support just the Randolph campus, that it would be about ten million dollars with a number two fuel oil system. And we roughly estimate that where we just, you know, replace it with a more energy efficient biomass or alternative fuel solution that we'd be looking at probably around sixteen million dollars. We feel like this proposal that BGS has come up with to install summer boilers extends the useful life of those boilers, by switching out from number four to number two, and it lowers the cost. It would be really disingenuous for me to say that there's no benefit for the VSC. Obviously, there is. Being able to switch from number four to number two while it's still a fossil fuel, it burns cleaner, it's easier to achieve, and it's cheaper to run. But we also believe that this is really sound for the Vail facility because they will have the necessary steam that they need to run from May to the end of September, and they will have a more reliable solution that is available to them year round. So that's the background that I have on it, and I'm happy to answer any questions that you have and also to debate the merits of Johnson versus Randolph. I will say the challenge for us is that we really believe strongly that the Vail building is important, but it is not the essential mission of the Vermont State Colleges. We are providing a service because we're being good partners for the Vail Lab and the state of Vermont, and we think it's really essential to the work that they do. We are not providing any additional educational opportunities for our students at the Vail Lab. I understand that was a question that you had last week. The services that we use, like water quality testing, are ones that we purchase just like every other occupant in the state of Vermont would purchase. So we take advantage of those services, but we pay for them just like everyone else. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Sure. [Speaker 3 ]: So the number so you can get to your fifty PSI if you go to a number two fuel. [Sharon Scott]: I think there's additional some additional engineering work that will need to be done with implementation of what that looks like. We have attempted to run at fifty PSI because of the way our solution is designed. There isn't anything that splits from fifty to less to forty or less. But we believe with some engineering work, we could provide both the fifty PSI and provide the forty and less than forty that we need for the campus so that we don't blow out our system, which is what can happen. [Speaker 3 ]: And and just a quick follow-up. You said sixteen million you needed to do this? [Sharon Scott]: If we were to move for us to move to focus just at on alternative fuel and to focus on our institute. If we were looking at replacing with number two, we'd be looking at about ten million dollars. My understanding is that what BGS has proposed, that there's three point five million in the governor's recommend and I believe one point eight in a combination of funds from last year. And we believe, you know, from having to talk with BGS that they can accomplish what they need to support the Vail lab, make sure that the the activities are there, and get first a cheaper amount of money. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Troy. [Troy Headrick]: And I think you stated it, but we may turn to Joe here in a second. What is the ultimate plan with regard to the biomass? [Sharon Scott]: That is something that you'd have to talk with Joe about. [Troy Headrick]: This is a whole this is still sort of a band aid. Are you still moving towards biomass? [Joe (likely Joseph Luneau)]: For the record [Chair Alice Emmons]: It's still the summer it's still the summer boiler. [Troy Headrick]: Yeah. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: For the record, Joe, I did record designing construction with building the general services. I what we're looking at first is really that summer boiler just because and then the the study done back, four valve was constructed. ATC, I believe, had the study done, but I gotta find out for sure who personally studied and paid for. But the study was done for wireless. And then there was also another one done for what we were looking at for doing a standalone. So if we were to continue down the road of using the steam from the college, we wouldn't be building a second plant and building it and have redundancy in our second plant. And the study back in the day said that there was roughly ten year payback by switching to biomes. Yep. Yeah. That would so it would have to be updated. [Troy Headrick]: Yeah. I was gonna [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: that's the next call. Right. And so we we'd be looking at doing that, but the most important thing would be to do the simmer boiler so they don't lose a boiler. We don't lose a boiler due to short [Joe (likely Joseph Luneau)]: sight. [Troy Headrick]: So if you move to biomass, I've got a few questions off of that. One is I I I know Burlington's reaction to the McNeil plant, for example, and it's not necessarily supportive of biomass as as the public, support for biomass change since twenty eighteen. But you would even if you continue to move towards a biomass plant, the summer boiler, you'd still be using the summer boiler or not? [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Probably, yes. Because we wouldn't have a the load that's required wouldn't be there for a chip. [Troy Headrick]: Yeah. Okay. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: With with pellets, yes, but I would wanna their the college, the year in the winter is really more for chips than it is for pellets. [Troy Headrick]: Yep. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: And we are charged by statute to look at the life cycle costs. I know. And that's how we end up with chips because that works out a lot. Yeah. McNeal is electric. You know, the their their primary is electric, r with chips, r for heat. Yeah. [Chair Alice Emmons]: So it's a life cycle cost. I was trying to follow you. Is it a long payback for mass? Which one comes out better with the life cycle? Oil or wood [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: When the study was done ten plus years ago, biomass had a ten year payback roughly five. And that was quickly review of the report before. So [Chair Alice Emmons]: if doing the summer boilers, which one what are you looking at? Doing it with foil or doing it by? Okay. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Part of that reason being is they have number four fuel that they're burning and not number two. If they had number two already in place, we would go with that. [Chair Alice Emmons]: So where would the summer boilers we would own the base state owned summer boilers? [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: That I we still have to have that discussion because ultimate from BGS's point of view would probably be that the college owns and maintains it in their plant as opposed to BGS personnel going into their plant. And not that it happens. It's not intentional, the bigger point into who does what, but at some point in time, they if they lost a boiler, that that summer boiler could also help provide steam to their plant in the coldest of needs. But that, we'd still have to have those discussions on. [Chair Alice Emmons]: So how many summer boilers again? Is it two two summer boilers? [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: I don't know that. I haven't we haven't we just hasn't looked at that. That just came about here after the capital build was being assembled. [Chair Alice Emmons]: So the summer boilers would physically be placed at the VTC campus. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Inside their existing boiler room. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Their existing boiler room. [Sharon Scott]: I heard a question last week about how is it that we have excess space to be able to do such a thing? A good question. And so I asked, we use that particular space to store supplies for our plumbing, heating, and electrical. We have the ability to be able to relocate that storage to a different location if it's our maintenance facility that has our heat plant in it. So it has the ability to be able to flex where we put those things. So we do have the excess capacity with inside the building to be able to support their needs. [Chair Alice Emmons]: And then the other part of this plan is to convert their current boilers PTC's current boilers from number four to number two. And we would still off off season, not the summer seasons, but the regular fall and winter when your students are back, we would then be able to pull still pull the heat from their boilers for our lab. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Yes. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Okay. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Summer boilers are truly just for the summer because of the reduced load. Their boiler plan was designed to keep the whole campus. Or they do have because of their boiler size, they if there are three boilers, they have some excess to pick up veils. But during the summer, it's only required for veils for dehumidification, hot water, and in sterilization. [Sharon Scott]: So those boil during the wintertime for the autoclave, can they produce fifty fifty PSIs? So our existing boilers, yes, we have the capability of being able to. We do need, some engineering work, and we would partner with BGS on that to be able to assess how to isolate for what Vail needs for fifty PSI versus what the campus needs, which is under forty. We had attempted to run at fifty PSI because our boilers can run at that, but it's too much, pounds per square inch for the rest of the campus, and it was causing problems elsewhere within our facility. So we had to throttle it back. [Chair Alice Emmons]: So the change from number four to number two for your boilers, what is involved? Do you change out the boilers completely? Just the burners. Just the burners. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: The boiler itself, if you gotta remember right, they're all tube boilers. So there's water running through them and that's how you're getting your steam off the top of that as the heat's going through the tubes. So it's really the burners themselves on the end. And, hopefully, we can reuse the tanks that are in the ground by going in and cleaning them out of the number four. [Chair Alice Emmons]: If they're not leaking. If they're not how old? [Sharon Scott]: Fingers crossed. I'm I'm not sure what their age is right now, but I certainly can find out. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Are they locked? [Sharon Scott]: I don't know. [Chair Alice Emmons]: They can't be single walled. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: They can't be double walled. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Well, depends how old they are. [Sharon Scott]: I will find out. I do know that we've had projects over the last fifteen years to replace out our tanks, simply to address making sure that we don't have leaks on our campuses, but I will find out. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Alright. [Kevin Winter]: I don't even know what stupid question is. The same line of reasoning of questioning. I wanna ask how old are the boilers and what's the useful life left, but it sounds like there's so many different components that have been swapped at different times. Is that even a reasonable question? [Sharon Scott]: So our existing boilers were installed in the late nineteen sixties, early nineteen seventies, very similar to the Johnson location, which were installed in the early nineteen sixties, late nineteen fifties. So they they have some serious age on them. [Kevin Winter]: Yep. [Sharon Scott]: And, they they do require a significant amount of care and feeding in part because of the fact that they are number four. Where the oil itself is thicker, it is harder to control. It's just from a viscosity perspective, it's it's much more difficult within those. So moving to number two, while not it's still fossil fuel, but while moving to number two, allows some of those things to ease up on some of the issues related to the the inner workings of the machines themselves. [Chair Alice Emmons]: So if if you're, if we admit this agreement with VTC and the lab, and you were on your own, do you be looking at replacing these spoilers? We [Sharon Scott]: would prioritize Johnson first. And that's a when we had spoken with the administration back in November, we were asked a very similar question. And from our perspective, the Johnson broilers were a greater need. That being said, we understand the significance of the needs that the Vail lab has as well. So this project is also of significant importance. If you had to make a choice between them, you obviously have a very difficult one before you. The Vail lab supports very directly supports the needs of the state, and and that heat plant also supports the needs of that campus. We anticipate that we would be coming forward with a project in a future biennium for the Randolph campus. So if if you have to make a choice between one or the other, you'll have to make the policy decision about what that looks like. But from our perspective, we felt that Johnson was important, and we recognized that BGS also felt that Randolph was important to be able to support bail. Specifically, the way it was posed to us was that as specifically a standalone, facility to support the bail lab. And we were very supportive because we know that the way that it's currently operating is rapidly accelerating the issues related to that particular campus. And so our ability to be able to have BGS address that so that we're we can extend the useful life significantly into the foreseeable future is one that we felt was really valuable. [Joe (likely Joseph Luneau)]: Okay. Just to clarify, so you twice you've mentioned talking to the administration. Just so I know who's talking to. You mean the government, the government administration or the school administration? The governor's administration. You put together [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: when [Chair Alice Emmons]: we put together, I just want to be like, [Joe (likely Joseph Luneau)]: I thought so, but I just, yeah, no, no, no. [Sharon Scott]: I am the administration. That's just Oh. So [Joe (likely Joseph Luneau)]: I was like, boy, you [Chair Alice Emmons]: know, For [Sharon Scott]: for the for the VSC. Yeah. I'm a finance person. Yeah. The governor's administration. Okay. [Joe (likely Joseph Luneau)]: So they know. Okay. [Chair Alice Emmons]: So if if your current boiler's to change it from four to two to change the burner change the burners Down the road in two years, if you do that switchover, and then you need to replace boilers. Can those burners be used in the new boiler? [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: I'm not a hundred percent sure. Probably, though. That's a take question. [Sharon Scott]: Right. And our expectation is that Can [Joe (likely Joseph Luneau)]: you ask that again? I did not [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: what did you [Chair Alice Emmons]: say? To switch these boilers [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Mhmm. [Chair Alice Emmons]: At VTC from number four to number two ordered. All you're doing is changing the burners. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Yeah. [Chair Alice Emmons]: And say you put in the new burners. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Yep. [Chair Alice Emmons]: What years after that, you gotta replace boilers? Gotcha. K. Into the new boilers. Can you use those burners that you put in? Gotcha. I'm glad that I don't have a voice. You don't have to hear me. [Sharon Scott]: I I think I we don't know the answer. I think most likely, yes. Our hope and and expectation is by doing this work now, we can extend that beyond two years, maybe six, eight, ten years, and we can continue to bail needs, But without looking at what the a formals you know, a formal engineer study looks like, it would be difficult to know. But from our conversations about what this project would look like, we believe that it will extend that out so that I would not be coming forward in two years making a request to replace those spoilers in Randolph. I might reserve the right to come about another campus, but, you know, but it wouldn't be about I I don't think it'll be about Randolph. [Chair Alice Emmons]: So right now, with the f y twenty six of three point five million and combination of what we're doing, that's like twenty four and twenty five here at five point three million. Is that gonna get us that there'd be two summer boilers? [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: I'm not a hundred percent sure because that's this came in as the capital bill was being put together, and I have not talked with the colleges about that would look like. [Chair Alice Emmons]: You mean for the summer for the [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: For summer boilers. So you don't [Chair Alice Emmons]: know if it'd be one or two or three? Correct. I don't know. So my question is a five point three million. [Troy Headrick]: Three point five. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Five point three. In combination. If you go go to this Oh, okay. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Yeah. No. No. No. [Troy Headrick]: No. I'm with Dan. Sorry. [Chair Alice Emmons]: They've had one point eight previous and then three point five. Is that five point three gonna give us the summer boilers and give us the burners to switch from four to two? Was the three point five in addition to the one point eight from the previous biennium when the budget was put together by the fifth floor, was that anticipating doing our own heating assist? [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: It started out when we had the previous funding, and this funding was for a stand alone. And at the very last minute, it's capital bill is being put together with the conversations with administration. I believe that is what it switches to. Why build a standalone facility when this too could be helping out the colleges along with providing the steam to this? [Chair Alice Emmons]: What was the projected cost of a stand alone? Do you remember? [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: I I wanna say it was around five million was our best estimate at the point in time. One second. And that is protecting the cost of inflation from the deduct alternate we took at the construction time of the plant. We did our permitting looks to be the same as long as we don't change the outside of the building or the size of the void and likes of that, but we would have to comply, I believe, not a hundred percent sure as to the new energy code and what that would do with the insulation of the building. Oddly enough, we still have to comply even though that in our heat plant, we are looking to actually get rid of the excess heat that's in the system. And we have bins to do that, but we still have to apply with the insulation. Nice. So we were gonna get our design underway. As I testified, we had got out to bid. We have the proposals in front of us to start that [Chair Alice Emmons]: For the stand for the stand alone? [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Yes. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Nick, can you share the the cost of those two? You haven't yeah. You're just We [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: haven't done a contract yet, and right now we're at a pivot point. The scope of work would drastically get changed from going from a standalone facility or verifying the plans and specs and bringing up the code versus doing a summer boiler with propane and converting the existing boilers from number four to number two. [16 seconds of silence] [Gina Galfetti]: I'm gonna Thank you. Forgiveness before I ask the question because I'm not looking to shoot any messengers. Yep. But it seems like we're in a situation because we didn't understand the requirement of bail when we entered into the MOU, the the agreement. The mismatch of what heat seen was available to what we needed, I caused a lot of problems that we're dealing with now and we don't wanna continue. How do we know we got a handle on what it's gonna take to really fix the problem now? [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: It would be I was not involved originally with the failed design and everything else. There were studies done. If the study that was done to be looking at the wood chips, it's calculated at fifty PSI even though the college does not do that. That's not to say though that it couldn't operate at boilers, can operate at fifty, and then you turn them down as steam goes out into the field. The study also looked at, you know, putting in a turbine and using the steam to generate electricity to do, you know, low electricity off limits, and then that waste is out of it is on reduced pressure, and that's what circulated around. I think that that's somewhat carried forward. But, again, our design initially was to do a stand alone boiler and not connect to the campus. Although the design was done to run the pipe to the campus so that we could, if need be, it was decided at that point in time to take the alternate deduct to remove this standalone plant and just connect to the college people. I think during that time, people might have lost the difference of PSI and not even taking that into consideration saying, well, it was designed to run a pipe. Yeah. And that's what happens. This time going forward, we know. We know both the colleges has always known what they operate at. [Gina Galfetti]: Painfully, we know. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: The the We know. Veil, we now know what we need actually for sizing Yeah. Because we know our actually steam loads now. So that we can take into account when we do a summer move. And the pressure can be dealt with also at that point in time that if we were still needing the fifty PSI coming off of the similar boiler, that what we could do. And the engineering that's involved is just another state reducing valve Yep. Downstream to lower that pressure. So ahead of that valve, fifty PSI goes to the nail, hollowed drones at forty or less, whatever they need to do. When they went on to the oil and fiber boilers that are there, that valve actually digs down stream on that so that their boilers could also put into what's called the header pipe. Look, come out of the boiler, all the pipes come together. That'd be a fifty PSI. Fifty PSI heads down to the valve, steam reducer goes into the college. That's how that would work. So that's it. [Sharon Scott]: And as Joe notes, you know, there was a five million dollar deduct on that particular project. Yeah. I I think we all thought with the best of intentions that if it's possible and there's excess capacity at this location, per year, that supports the state of Vermont and, and there's no harm in it. The challenges knowing now what we do, it's it's not an ideal solution, and and we don't have the ability to be able to just cut them off, nor would we not do. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Thank you. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. At that at that time, there were a lot of factors going into building this lab. There were FEMA dollars because this is a result of the flooding at the Waterbury complex where we lost two labs. There were FEMA dollars involved in this. There was the overall cost of the lab, so what, dollars twenty four million to build? There was the overall cost of the lab and how much was going to be FEMA, how much was state, and we're getting a lot of pushback from one of the abutters, one of the landowners, that really delayed the project for at least a year, if not two years. And I'm wondering if one of the thoughts was to help, the concern from the landowner is not to have her own boiler there because that only took up more space. And I'm wondering if some of that got negotiated to try to work through the landowner's concern. I don't know that. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: We didn't get to that point only because the landowner sold. Before. And the new owner had no issues with [Chair Alice Emmons]: Yeah. Before we were actually [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: I don't I don't recall all the issues that the landowner had other than a lot of them was visual. So it wasn't just in a boiler plant. It was in the lab itself. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Lab. And most of the noise, I think. It was also [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: noise also because it, you know, it was a camping area, and they were concerned about that at night and all that stuff. And [Chair Alice Emmons]: It's right by the vets it's right by the veteran's cemetery. If you're down the hill, you go into the veteran's cemetery. So it's at the top of the hill there at the top of the road, and it used to be that it's called the soccer soccer field. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: It's a global soccer. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Soccer field. It's a beautiful building. That's a great view. [Sharon Scott]: Yeah. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Yes. That's But in large part, [Speaker 8 ]: it appears that VSCs are are kind of being the victim of just doing a good deed here. And even if if we were seeing a presentation for an HVAC upgrade to the Randolph campus, it wouldn't be this. This isn't really this is for the benefit of the lab. So there may be some ancillary benefit to to the Randolph campus. But but to frame this is what's a larger priority for GSEs, I don't think is is reasonable because this failed project really isn't for the benefit of the Randolph campus. [Chair Alice Emmons]: What we have to weigh, though, is the age of the boilers because we know that snow isn't gonna have to be replaced. So there'll be state investment in terms of changing out burners. And then in two or three years of those boilers, like the dust, can those burners be used or not? So we've got state dollars for going into an old boiler system and that's a key on the old step. [Speaker 8 ]: I think the other testimony we saw is that this failed steam support can't wait. It's like [Chair Alice Emmons]: that's You mean the Tonson one? [Speaker 8 ]: No. No. It failed. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Oh, failed. [Speaker 8 ]: Because of this, discontinuity and steam results in some really bad stuff happening in the lab. [Kevin Winter]: Samples here, about two hundred and fifty thousand each time or something. [Speaker 8 ]: Has absolutely nothing to do with with the granddad. It's but I understand what you're [Chair Alice Emmons]: I mean, that's what we have to weigh because we're using taxpayer dollars. We're using quote dollars to help meet the needs that we need for our own labs that supports the public's needs, but we're also putting state money into machinery that the state does not own, that we know is getting to the end of its life if it's not already fixed. [Speaker 8 ]: I understand that. I understand. [Chair Alice Emmons]: That's what we need to balance as a legislative body and a legislative committee. [Speaker 8 ]: But but the point, it's only and I I it's it's it's only a, you know, an ancillary benefit to the entity who owns the equipment. The project, although it's that old equipment, it's not for it's not for the Randolph campus. It's for rail lat. [Chair Alice Emmons]: It's for both. It's for both. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: But if those boilers die early or you do the conversion and Sharon is saying, you know, also we get six to eight years, ten years out of them, and I I would say that's probably true. We do boilers segway. Oiler themselves have life cycle for years. Proper maintenance, they go on for quite some time. You can change up the burner. There are two boilers. You can change up the tubes, retube the boiler. And then it's then you're only looking at the outer shell. The parts and pieces on that whole thing can be replaced to keep them going, and we at Aegis do that a lot of them. We have [Gina Galfetti]: a little boilers. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: It's usually when, you know, they're starting to leak is when the issue comes up. And so along those lines, if we addenda, we do our stand alone. We know where we're at. But if we do continue down the road, do just a summer boiler, the issue still is if in the winter, they lose a boiler, that seventeen percent that we're contributing will be coming out of the general fund to be paying for that also in the long run for whatever that cost is for a few years downgrowth. So we're we're paying. [Chair Alice Emmons]: What way are the average? [Joe (likely Joseph Luneau)]: Yeah. Yeah. I remember we asked [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: this the other day, and you [Joe (likely Joseph Luneau)]: you didn't know. When how long will it take to find out what whether it's one boiler, two boilers, all that stuff that Alice has asked about for summer like, the details of the summer boiler [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: I don't know what to ask. I mean, you know, I don't know how far the colleges looked into. You know? So these one or two Okay. They may have an idea already, and we better have that discussion. I think come back with an answer or later in the session, probably come back with a a lag and say, this is what our best guess is. I my guess, to not know anything more, would probably be it's at least two boilers. Only because that way, then each one runs two thirds so you can still be providing some steam. Mhmm. And, again, this is in the summer, so a little bit less. You're not providing heat. You're providing steam for dehumidification, for the auto plays, and also for hot water. [Joe (likely Joseph Luneau)]: Yeah. So And so then for the boss over here, So it sounds like for this project, it's needed. It's necessary, but it's not ready to go. Is this something that we'll put off for next fiscal year that we're gonna flag to put in BAA or or we're gonna put money ahead and say, well, we know they're not ready, but, hopefully, they can be soon. What what is your guidance? [Chair Alice Emmons]: Well, it depends if we right now, you've had two bands that came in to do the stand alone summer. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Yes. Right? But we don't know if it's one or two. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Right. We don't know the cost because they haven't signed into a contract. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Right. Well and that is for the stand alone facility. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Right. Oh, [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: the stand alone. Stand alone. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. We have an odd BGS has not done any investigation in the summer floor Right. Connecticut College. [Chair Alice Emmons]: So could this the the two beds that have come in, could you modify that RFP that went out to them or talk with them and say, if we did, instead of doing a summer boiler stand alone summer boiler, if we did the proposal where we do it within VTC's facility and change out the burps in their borders with those two bids, with those two Okay. Able to rebid. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: They could re I would recommend rebidding because the scope is changed. You're not looking at chip boilers and everything that you need to work in the house. Environmental electrostatic precipitate. There. So that's we've got propane boilers. It could be one of those It's size. Right? It's a stock item. You know? And and the sign of that goes relatively quick. Right? But I gotta I had to do a little more homework to find that out for you. [Chair Alice Emmons]: So if you go out and read in, say as I know, I feel okay, whichever is gonna be happy on your chart. I don't know. Well Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: It's raining. Counting the notes. [Chair Alice Emmons]: God, I missed what he said. It's [Joe (likely Joseph Luneau)]: That's not nice, Joe. [Chair Alice Emmons]: I'll go in. If if we now change our focus and decide to do the summer boiler within the PTC facility and change out those two burns. What is your time frame for going out with a newer pay to rebid it? [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: I could start that process right now. I think within two weeks, we could probably have an RFP ready to go out to the street for that. If the college has done a little bit of homework that already know roughly what that size is, we'd be all set. [Chair Alice Emmons]: And then you get the bids back by beginning of April, middle of April? [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Yes. That sounds reasonable. Ball goes well. [Chair Alice Emmons]: And then by getting those bids back, you'd have a better ballpark figure in terms of what's the total cost would be if you would be within the five point three million? [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Well, I would know what the design cost would be. I wouldn't necessarily know what the cost of the do some of the boilers would be and are changing out by number four to number two. But we can do a little homework and see what we come up with for an estimate. [Chair Alice Emmons]: But you're front loading it right now. You got one point eight million. That gets you through design. Right? At least [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Yeah. I yeah. It should be. But, again, I don't know what's involved with the summer bonus, but what the intent would be right now is if we could pull it off to have those ready to almost go mid summer. If they're off the shelf, ready to go, that'd be great. But I need to do some more homework. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Would VTC be able to do that if they were off the shelf and ready to go and be installed during the summer? Working with BGS. Yes. And would the summer boilers under that plan, would you also need at the same time to replace burners, or can that be done months down the road? [Sharon Scott]: I would assume that we would stage that work, address the summer boilers first, and then, make sure that we have enough plan. It's doubtful that the burners are gonna be immediately available off the shelf. Maybe they would be, but, doubtful, and we need to address lead time. And we have such short windows within our cycle to be able to implement things. So it it may have to wait till the following summer to be able to do that work. But ATS would be assured that the Vail building would have its heat the following summer. Yeah. [Chair Alice Emmons]: So going out to bed would be just dealing with the summer boilers. It wouldn't be dealing with the burners, replacement of the burners. Correct? [Wanda Minoli]: I think that that was the plan. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Right. Right. Because it would also be addressing everything at once inside of the heat plant, the heat, the fuel. [Sharon Scott]: From a design perspective. [Joe (likely Joseph Luneau)]: Oh, so you'd you'd bid it, but do it in phases. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Yes. [Chair Alice Emmons]: K. So the whole bid would be summer boilers as well as a burner replacement. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: For design. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Yeah. For design. Is that true, commissioner? Is that [Wanda Minoli]: Yes. And I apologize, Wanda Manoli, commissioner for PGS. You know, in working with Joe on this and also looking at the, the issue just around the heating planning general or the collar for the upgrade, we have two goals, and they have to align as we plan for this. The first goal is is we need to have a system that supports the lab in the summer. And I don't know if Joe talked about what pressure we weren't receiving. Yes. Very good. So that's our first goal because we have a lab that is having issues with doing some of their testing. So it's it's whole, but it's it's face. So we have to address that. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Mhmm. [Wanda Minoli]: And we really need to address the summer, if we can, the lab, before the summer kicks in this year. That's our goal. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: That is correct. [Chair Alice Emmons]: And then it's So Annie. Stop there. You have one one point eight million right now. How far does that get you to actually installing the orders? [Wanda Minoli]: And I think that's what Joe was saying when I walk in, so I don't wanna miss speak. But I think Joe's saying that, we've got the one point eight, and we have the money that we've requested. [Chair Alice Emmons]: The three point five. [Wanda Minoli]: And that's in twenty seventeen or twenty they're in twenty sixteen. Sorry. Sixteen. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Twenty six. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Twenty six. Twenty six. [Chair Alice Emmons]: I'm sorry. Yes. I have Okay. [Wanda Minoli]: What's my repo numbers? Yeah. So I just want you all to know what year I'm in this morning. You know? So Yes. Yes. Because we wanna continue to advance, but it is a partnership with the colleges. Yes. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: And we just haven't done the homework to know exactly what the cost of these changes would be. Right. So that way, we can get we can get work done. [Chair Alice Emmons]: So I followed until we get to twenty sixteen. She too. That's a twenty percent. It's on the one point eight. We definitely get you boilers installed. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: It would get definitely design funds. I don't know how much [Speaker 10 ]: we'll cost for these boilers. [Wanda Minoli]: That's right. So I'm gonna so the one point six, what I believe Joe, that will get us the overall design, the large plan to meet those goals. And of that, we wanna be able to use money to do the summer boiler and the additional funds, and that's the piece we don't know what the cost is. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Yeah. Right. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Which is [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: what Joe was gonna get us. Right? [Chair Alice Emmons]: And you're hoping Yes. [Wanda Minoli]: And you're design the whole thing. Right. [Chair Alice Emmons]: But you're gonna put it [Wanda Minoli]: in But based based on those priorities. Right. [Chair Alice Emmons]: So the one point a covers your design, and some, you're hoping of those summer boilers. Right. [Wanda Minoli]: And we don't know how much. [Chair Alice Emmons]: And you're hoping to have those summer boilers in this [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: It would be if they're [Chair Alice Emmons]: If it's off the shelf. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: It's sized. Right? If they're off the shelf and we can find them out there? Yes. Because the all the steam pipes in place, it's electrical connected to the boiler Yep. Propane tanks at a boiler you slide into place and then connect it to pipes. [Chair Alice Emmons]: So there may be some money left in that one point eight that could go towards some of those summer boilers. You're not sure, and that's why that three point five would be used from July That's correct, madam chair. Fill the hole. And the question is, what is remaining of the three point five that will go towards the new burners and what's involved there? And you're not you will know that after you've gone out to rebid. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Speak to complete the design. [Phil Petty]: We'll know what those costs are. Right. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: We'll have estimates [Chair Alice Emmons]: soon. K. So in f y twenty six, we have to make sure there's enough money there to pay for those summer boilers and the propane in the installation. [Wanda Minoli]: The overall design to enhance. Yes. [Chair Alice Emmons]: So it's not the full five point three mil. But you need something in f y twenty six. And would you anticipate doing the new burners in f y twenty six, or would that be kicked over to the next I [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: guess. I would why we're there? Do it all. [Chair Alice Emmons]: But you don't know what the supply chain the supply issue would be. But what [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: could happen is if [Chair Alice Emmons]: it's Okay. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: If we could because of delivery times, perhaps, to preorder it and then follow-up on a bot or whatever that balance might be if so. But I I gotta do design and get an estimate first before I can so I just need it all or parts [Phil Petty]: of it. [Joe (likely Joseph Luneau)]: Just to clarify, because two things that just been said. Is it we're designing everything and then doing it in phases, or is it we're there, we're gonna do it all? Those are two different things. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: We're designing for both the summer boiler and the conversion the conversion two. Instruction first on the summer boiler and whatever funding is left over to move forward if there's enough funding to do the conversion. If not, it would be to reserve that money and ask for additional funding to finish a super conversion. Yes. Thank you, sir. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Sure. Sean? [Speaker 3 ]: Just as a side note with the propane tanks, do you suggest putting them in the ground or leaving them above the ground? [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: We I don't know how the collages work, but with BGS, basically, they're the ground. We we own the tanks. If they're above ground, where we're supplying the fuel, all those tanks. So it go either way. [Sharon Scott]: Typically, at our college campuses, we try to keep things buried. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: So we got more [Sharon Scott]: people Because of students. I mean, it's some down. Just typically. It's not it's not always, but typically, we try and make [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: them Disappear. [Sharon Scott]: Yeah. Less of a target, shall we say. [Joe (likely Joseph Luneau)]: Less not to get off topic, but it's also a really nice beautiful place. And Right. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: You have [Joe (likely Joseph Luneau)]: a Right. Just a big white propane tank. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Right. That's right. Target. So between what you already have and the three point five, Five point three million. So the scenario could be you go out to bed. You get a whole new price for doing the boilers and replace the burners. You would know that it cost by the middle of ape end of April. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: If all garnished align, I put that up to date. Yes. I believe so. Yes. Mid April would be it. I might be off a week. A week later. [Chair Alice Emmons]: I'm just trying to figure out the length of the session. I want you to have more information because what could also happen is those bids could come in a lot higher than the five point three million. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: For design, it would not. Mhmm. For the design, it would not be that high. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Yeah. But if you wanna do full work Yes. In the summer, as well as replacing the burners, which you could do in the fall. I mean, you're facing again, you've gotta order those burners. You just don't know how long. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: I will not have estimates from design day before you go. [Chair Alice Emmons]: You will not? I will not. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: We can do a back of the napkin and present you something. I don't know. I keep hearing more here all summer. So [Chair Alice Emmons]: No worries. At the end by July We'll be out of [Troy Headrick]: the March both being done. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: We'll be [Chair Alice Emmons]: up by twentieth of May. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Alright. [Wanda Minoli]: And, mister Harris, are you trying to identify if he could move money into the next year, or are you trying to identify if we have enough money to advance this project? Because we do from a from a policy and program, we have an issue at the AgLab, which I think they've talked to you about. [Chair Alice Emmons]: They've done. [Wanda Minoli]: And and we need to focus that [Chair Alice Emmons]: We're on. Okay. So I'm trying trying to figure the cash flow. And I'm trying to figure, is five point three million going to get you everything that you need, or you're gonna need more. By the end of the session, we have to find more money, or can we split up the three point five between the two fiscal years? Or next year, you may come in needing a higher appropriation. That's reasonably helpful. So there's a lot of [Wanda Minoli]: I think that if we if you could give us a little bit of time when we go back, we we could break it out in that phase and try to, align some dollars with what you're talking about, with the committee knowing, as Joe said, back and back, and there are estimates. We're not doing estimation. We don't know what the environment on you know, what's we might be able to do a couple of phone calls and get some rough numbers. But to answer your question, do you need it all, and can you accomplish it based on the estimates? Could we phase it if it but to respond to the way you were you were saying? [Chair Alice Emmons]: Yeah. I just don't wanna show I think the committee committee is on board. We're going forward with a summer boiler. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Yeah. Yeah. We just need to [Chair Alice Emmons]: And changing out the two Absolutely. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Do. [Chair Alice Emmons]: I don't wanna shortchange you. I don't wanna if it's coming in less [Joe (likely Joseph Luneau)]: We need the money. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Wanna give you all the money. [Joe (likely Joseph Luneau)]: Yep. That's fair. Yeah. So in other words, the sooner you can get us some beautiful numbers [Chair Alice Emmons]: Yeah. I know we're good. Right? So I think if you folks could go sharpen your pencils a little bit Mhmm. Make some phone calls, just give us some some indication a little bit. We don't wanna shortchange you. We wanna make sure that you can go ahead and check. But, you know, three point five million, it's a big joke. [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: Mhmm. [Chair Alice Emmons]: And so we so we can help you, but also we've gotta put a budget together. [Gina Galfetti]: Okay. Sure. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Anything else before we take a quick break? [Gina Galfetti]: Oh, Calvin's here. Okay. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Welcome, Kel. [Troy Headrick]: Good to [Joe (same as Speaker 4)]: be here. Thank you. [Chair Alice Emmons]: Okay. So let's, take a thank you, Shana. Thank you so much. Let's try to make a call. Let's take a quick I'm gonna oh, sorry.

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