SmartTranscript of House Commerce - 2025-04-17 - 9:00AM

[Chair Michael Marcotte]: Good morning, everyone. This is Vermont House Committee on Commerce and Economic Development. It is Thursday, April seventeenth twenty twenty five at nine zero three in the morning. So we're beginning our day having a discussion with our lumber dealers and we have Bill Smith with us. Bill good morning. Thank you for joining. [Bill Smith]: Thank you Mr. Chairman. Members of the committee good morning. I'm the paid lobbyist, for the Vermont Retail Lumber Dealers Association. And and who are they? Well, they're not the forest product folks who are out there. These are the folks that sell building supplies to our contractors throughout the state. I think, including representative at the other end of the table buys from a few of our members. Thanks, Greg. Anyway, so you don't wanna talk to me today. You wanna talk to what I call real people. And I brought them here with and they're happy to talk to you about it. And I if I could, I'd like to kinda step out quickly and just put do it on the room, let you know who folks are and who they work for and where their headquarters is around the state. I wanna start can we if we could, mister chairman? Yes, ma'am. Start with Claudia Holman over there. [Claudia Holman]: Hi, Alcanda. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for having us. I am Claudia Holman. I am president currently in PRLVA. I work for Bethel Mills. Bethel Mills has been in for two hundred and forty years, actually, over two hundred and forty years, and we have eight locations throughout the state starting from, again, Bethel, and then we go into Brandon. So those are our many of the areas that we live and work. Doctor, [Chair Michael Marcotte]: WW doesn't supply at two locations, and he's banking as well. They're there for years for years. [Claudia Holman]: Morning. I'm Katie Gallagher. I actually am associate director with the BRLDA. It depends on the manufacturer representative. Company that I work for is Huber Engineered Woods, which is a building materials manufacturing company, but we support our retail owner dealers in in their efforts here. [Speaker 3 ]: Good morning. My name [Jeremy Baker]: is Jeremy Baker. I'm the ex officio of the VRLDA. I'm also on the executive committee for the NRLA. Sorry about all the acronyms, but this shortens the discussion that we have only precious time. I'm a proud father of two, raising my family, in Londonderry, Vermont and Rutland, Vermont. I've I've lived long Vermonter fourth generation. I worked for RK Miles, which has nine locations, but seven of which are in Vermont. I'm the fleet and safety director there, and I really just appreciate the the fact that you guys are obligating our request and would like to say that I I sympathize with the challenges that you face, and we're here really to to support you more than anything. So [Speaker 3 ]: Thank you. Good morning. I'd like to say exactly what Jeremy said. I'm the clientele. I'm the director. I'm the bureau of the also been in the business center since I was a kid, and I also prefer a Fremont. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Tim Combs from Goodrow Lumber in East Middlebury, past owner of Goodrow's. I actually sold last year to a couple of young individuals that wanted to come into our industry, which is great. I'm the ex ex officio of, the VRLDA and past legislative chair, and we thank you for taking the time to hear us today. [Jeremy Baker]: Brian Moses. My family owns Britton Lumber Company in Fairley, Vermont. My brother and I are the next generation, firmly firmly established business, willing to do anything we can support the retail members. We're a wholesaler, which means we're a trucking operation as much as we sell building supplies. But yeah. [Bill Smith]: I I guess that's all of us here today, mister chairman, but I guess I'm gonna step aside. I know Jeremy wanted to come in and share and hope you have a good give and take. We'll give you our take on things. Oh, sorry. Jeff, I'm sorry. Yeah. Oh, there like a page. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: I wanna have I didn't I'm not talking. So former page I'm the branch manager of the good summer in Williston. We have two locations in Vermont, Williston, and Burlington. Growing a family of six. Young and deep in. [Bill Smith]: Mister chair, I also Francis Pawlowski. I should he's the guy who signs my check, so I can't do that. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: I can't do that. Sorry. Morning. [Jeremy Baker]: My name is my spouse. I see. I'm the director of government affairs for the Northeastern Retail Lumber Association, which is the ERLD is our local affiliate. We represent more than a thousand independent locally family owned businesses just like these guys all through the northeast. Thank you. Thanks, Peter. You guys said? Yep. Yep. Okay. The hot seat. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Good morning to everyone. Thank you for coming in and willing to speak with us this morning. I you know, we'd like to hear what what's happening out in the industries, your challenges, things we're doing that we could do better, things that were that you need that that we might be able to help you. There's no never a guarantee, but we certainly appreciate we appreciate you coming in today. Sure. Probably before we get started, I just ask everybody, members around the table to introduce themselves as well. So I'll start with myself. I'm Mike Marcotte. I'm chair of the committee. I'm from Coventry, and I represent Coventry, Irishburg, Newport Town, Troy j Westfield, Lowell, and Eden. [Claudia Holman]: Edie Branning, vice chair of the committee representing Jericho and Underhill. I'm Abby Duke. I represent part of Burlington. [David 'Dave' Bosch]: We're Wilson, Bristol, Lincoln, Moncton, Starksboro. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: We built our house with the Goodyear Lumber Materials. I'm holding in shit. [Speaker 6 ]: Alright. I'm with Harris Funkin. I represent Wilmington waiting here in Halifax. [Jonathan Cooper]: Nice. I'm Jonathan Cooper. I live in Pownall in southwestern corner of the state, and the Bennington district includes Reedsboro, Searsburg, Stanford, and Woodford, and we we did our daughter's bedroom. It was with RK Miles. Hey. [Jeremy Baker]: So far, you're my favorite. [David 'Dave' Bosch]: Alright. [Jeremy Baker]: I'm I wanna interrupt and say our association is made up of direct competitors. So we are all, like, we're in the American League East competing against each other. You know? But the the great thing about it is we don't care because we're respectful of each other. We have developed great relationships with with all of the businesses. We understand that I think it was Ben Franklin that said, if we don't hang together, then surely we'll each hang alone. That's kind of been our model for the past few years. Claudia and I are, you know, we we are, like, the dynamic duo that just attack any issue, that comes up. And I I just wanna make it clear that we are in direct competition with each other, at the same time, we're we're in line with each other step by step to make sure that the industry continues to move forward. So [Claudia Holman]: And to Jeremy's point, a few years back, we just we realized that we had to come together as an organization. And so when we go out to our events, we wear a jacket that says BRL yet. [Speaker 3 ]: Yeah. [Claudia Holman]: Not Bethel [Jeremy Baker]: Rather than the individual businesses. [Claudia Holman]: Because we are now here for the state Yeah. [Speaker 3 ]: And for [Claudia Holman]: the kids who are in the state, not just for I want employees, but I do. [Speaker 3 ]: She's on her front. Next. Dave Bosch, and I live in Clarendon Springs. I represent Rutland two, which is Wallingford, Clarendon, West Rutland, and the bulk of Rutland towns. And, unfortunately, that gives me the the home of the You're a little alley guy. No late lamented Rutland Plywood and Mill River Alberts competition. Miller [Jeremy Baker]: River was just recently purchased, though. Was it? Yes. Oh, that's good news. By a driven A businessman out of the Londonderry area. Yeah. [Speaker 3 ]: Hunter Excavating. And I'm not a forester, but I'm retired from the thirty nine years at the US Forest Service. [Jeremy Baker]: I have a degree in forestry, so you and I will see each other at lunch. [Tony Micklus]: We will. I'm Tony Mechlus. I represent most of Milton, a little bit of Georgia, and my house is so old. [Speaker 3 ]: I Well, I don't know. I guess maybe it was Claudia's company. They [Jeremy Baker]: came over on Mayflower. [Speaker 3 ]: Micah Booten. I live in Barrie City, so it's some [Michael Boutin]: throw away from where you guys are currently located. When we [Claudia Holman]: briefly Bradford fairly west fairly, so Britain and Buffalo Bills. And I just wanna put I have a shadow here today, so I'm gonna have to chat, but it's not because I don't appreciate all of you. I'm [Speaker 3 ]: sure quite I'm the right member of many. I'm from I worked in Belkowrock, Chester Stockbridge, and Hancock. And I [Chair Michael Marcotte]: went to school with the Dorothy family. Yeah. [Jeremy Baker]: I'm losing here. I'm losing. I needed to invite some ringers. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Well, good morning. Good morning. We have, of course, most important person here, the queen of commerce. [Claudia Holman]: That's right. I represent just some corner here. [Speaker 3 ]: It doesn't sound like you wanna span that little corner. [Claudia Holman]: That's alright. [Jeremy Baker]: So I'm not gonna waste your time on this because this is our written testimony. I'm not gonna read it because I think that that would just be redundant. The message that I think that we all wanna get across is by the end of our meeting is that we care. Ultimately, that's, I think, what we want to to, let everybody here know. And I want you to to realize too that our Bright Futures event, we did a survey, and I I did we hand this survey out to members? Okay. So we'll we'll get this to you. Mhmm. But there's a student from Cold Hollow Career Center, and the thing that he said he learned something he learned something new was that you guys care. So we have a student that's identifying with us as an organization that cares about their future in the state. And governor Scott came as our keynote speaker, delivered he delivered an incredible message to them. I wouldn't call it a speech as much as I would call it a plea for them to consider the trades moving forward, to stay in the trades, and most importantly, stay in Vermont, understanding all the challenges that face them as young people in the state. We're very invested in the career technical ed, portion of things. We understand the challenges you're facing right now with all of the redistrictization of your your school boundaries and all of those challenges as well. If we can be of any help in that effort, we would like to be a have a seat at the table. We are a stand for what we believe in rather than fight against what we don't. That the latter, I think, is you're immediately from coming from a point of weakness, which is not where we wanna be. We identified as a group probably five years ago that workforce development was important, and we didn't wait for anybody else to show us how to do things to to help that. So with Claudia's guidance, we started the Bright Futures event. It's grown into event that we're at a we're at a point where we're either going to have to start to turn people away or go to a bigger facility. We have a tremendous amount of interest from, vendors. We have a tremendous amount of interest from students, and we wanna even begin to, invite students in the middle school because we believe they need to be given that opportunity and that that track earlier rather than just high school. So I've got all kinds of people here that are experts. If you ask us a question we can't answer, I'll make a note in my book. Hopefully, I don't have to open this book to make a note because I believe that this this group of people can answer any of your questions. So I'd like to actually open the floor to you to to ask any that you may have about our organization. We could talk for three hours, so we'll try to keep it as short as the time allows us. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Thank you. Appreciate that. I think a few years ago, we joined you, and it might have been your kickoff. I'm not sure. But Yeah. [Claudia Holman]: A lot of you were down. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Randall. [Speaker 3 ]: Yeah. That's right. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: That was really interesting. It was good to see a good amount of of students there and and a lot of displays, and I think it's a a great event. So appreciate you Yeah. [Jeremy Baker]: And we appreciated the fact that you brought your your group at that point. Because in the beginning, our concept was we wanted to be a conduit between this group and the career technical education centers. And we still do that, but no offense to everybody in the room. We started to focus more on the career tech folks because that's that's where, you know, that that's where we feel the most, impactful. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: But, you know and I think, you know, you've alluded to the issues that are going on with our education system. But, I think for us, it's an opportunity. You know, we've had this committee's had workforce for the last ten years as part of our charge and what we look at. And we've been pushing great technical education for those ten years, Not getting very far, because of all the challenges, in the education world outside of CPE. This is a great opportunity this year because of everything that's going on for us to make headway in making sure that there's new governance structures for the CTEs both in the high school and the adult side of CTE, but also how we fund CTE as well and getting, you know, moving away from the funding formula that we have now where the money follows your child and it's disadvantages the high school budget Yes. And, changing that whole dynamic so that we can get more flow into the career centers as well to give students, a a full opportunity to to to recognize what opportunities are out there for them. So whether they go to college or not, if they can get into the career center, they may find something that that may be more enjoyable to them. Yes. [Jeremy Baker]: So you're not asking a question, but if you don't mind, I'd I'd like to there he is. I'd like to introduce Tim Collins again. Tim has an incredible relationship with the Hannaford Career Center, and he has a he has a passion like all of us, but it's specific to that that issue that you're talking about. So, Tim, if if you don't mind, would you [Tim Combs]: Yeah. Yeah. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: I I'd actually like to hand out. I spoke a couple of days ago with our superintendent. Let's probably just let you pass him down the the line. I spoke with our superintendent a couple of days ago, and she wanted me to to bring these points to to you folks. And I thought it was really important that I speak with her and the instructor, Nick Gantrick, who I work very closely with day to day. Our kids, unfortunately, they have a very limited amount of people that actually sign up for the programs where we find that, like, Stafford, south of us, has overabundance of people signing up and kids got turned away this year. So that was one of the things that I wanted to bring to you folks is that if we really start to share that boundary and the demographics in Vermont, which hasn't been done for over forty years, I believe if we could restructure that and and reach out to these career centers as to who's got the overabundance of of kids signing up and who doesn't and try to get that demographics structured where we even out And that will help with the cost per student, obviously, because it cost us a lot more money at Hannaford Career Center to teach these kids than it does somebody like Stafford who has a full boat. Sure. So I if you have any questions, please feel free to reach out to me and especially to these superintendents of the career centers. I think that they can be a big portion of helping you folks out as well. We've been talking to Nicole. Yeah. Great. She's she's very smart lady. Thank you, Dan. If I may. [Claudia Holman]: We come here today to say to you, we want to help. You asked if we had anything that and, of course, we all have the same goals in this room. Right? We want the kids to find a way to stay in Vermont. I have a daughter who graduated, went to Chicago, and she's coming back now after college. But we want them to stay in Vermont, and we want them to find meaningful work. I love this state. I raised my daughter in Rochester. She was raised by Bill. And that's a that's a great model. We all have capabilities, individuals, and each one of us has a way of looking at something. And so this group, we've been very lucky. Bright Futures took off. And the kids, I have these surveys. I can hand them out. I didn't bring enough for everyone to go to the doctor. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: If you could send them for a hand and raise [Claudia Holman]: them for a while. On the first page alone, seven children said, talking with others and seeing that people care was the most important piece of it. Learning about new opportunities was the most important piece of it. So we are here as businesses to say, we're willing to invest. I'm willing to say, hey. You know, if you've got a program and you want me to support some internships, you want me to support some apprenticeships, you want me to bring them in and teach them something, we'll do that. You know? We we will help. We we're not just looking for you to do something. We are looking to act, and we've been trying to act in a small venue. But as a group, we are welcoming whatever you might think of out of the box where local businesses can help. I can't create anything. I have a passion for the trades because I am craft impaired. That's why friends will tell you that. And, and I love when you can fix something. I love when you can make something. And I love what I do, and I'm an accountant, by the way. And it's not exciting. But I I how do you teach people? My point is we come here today to say, you've got a tough job. We've been running things a certain way for a long time, and they have to change. And we know we've gotta come alongside you in order to help you do that, to help our kids. We don't have enough kids. And Bethel Mills has been in business for two hundred and forty years. It's a hundred and seventy employees. We are one of the best paying, best benefits, in the state. I would stand up against anywhere, actually. I I love my company. But my point is these are good jobs, and and we are very much looking forward to seeing kids coming in and take those jobs. So I mean, again, so [Speaker 3 ]: far. That's okay. Thank you. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: So you're working with with five hundred labor? So apprenticeships, internships? [Claudia Holman]: Yeah. So Mike Harrington had come to it was the fourth time he's come. They did ask I was invited to be on the workforce development committee. And, unfortunately, this year as the president, I I just was more than I could do, but I do hope to sit with them. And I think this is a great meeting, but I think sitting with each other in small groups and saying, so what are you looking at? How are you seeing this? I don't we don't know what we don't know. [Jeremy Baker]: Yeah. [Claudia Holman]: We don't even know some of the things that you face. You brought a few of the pieces up when we visited yesterday evening. I don't know how to help you because I don't necessarily know what you're facing, and I don't wanna sit here and say, well, why can't they just do that? No. [Tim Combs]: When you get a hundred [Chair Michael Marcotte]: eighty people, some have different views. And [Claudia Holman]: And that's right. And it's very important to hear all of them. Yep. And I think that that collaboration is what makes the best end product. [Jeremy Baker]: But we need to provide hope for the young younger kids in this state. We wanna change the narrative from Vermont's largest export is our youth. That's been the narrative for years. And it's really I mean, it gets to a point where it's kind of embarrassing, but it's the truth because we can't we just can't retain them. Governor Scott brought up a few valid points during his speech. The average age in the trades is fifty four. So, I mean, we look around here, and I bet our average age is probably above that. I'm fifty four myself, so I can relate to that. So the average age is fifty four. We need twenty four thousand new homes built in this state in order to meet the housing, needs of the state. And then you combine that with, affordable housing, which I think affordable housing, if we went around the room and pulled everybody what that meant, it it would probably mean something different to each one of us. But to try and balance all of those things is going to be very difficult. And it's I I believe it's all of our responsibilities here to be able to come together and make that happen. I don't think any of this is a one side of the aisle or the other side of the aisle issue. I think it's an issue that we are all in agreement on regardless of your political views. So at least I'm hopeful that that's the way it is. When we went to Washington, we met with Sanders, Welch, and Balance offices, and the one thing that we brought up was workforce development because we know that everybody recognizes that that needs to be addressed. You know, we we weren't talking about things that were not gonna be heard. So, you know, once again, we try to promote rather than discourage. [Claudia Holman]: So the CTE programs do need to be expanded. Licensing within the programs themselves, they're important. The Hartford offers a that's that's that's a Stratford and, I believe, even a hairdresser. I'm old. I'm sixty, so hairdressing, but I say degree where you can be licensed when you come out. We are also looking at drivers in CDL programs coming back in to some degree into into those programs. And, again, we are happy to support that. I don't I don't know that it necessarily has to be a tax, but some type of way to support those types of programs that help us in the end, certainly, it's a good conversation to have. We'd love to see introduction in junior high school, And we will start pushing out with our organization to get into the high schools, to the younger people, male and female, have to be in this industry. And so, that's an important push as well is to see it start a little bit earlier. [Jeremy Baker]: So we've spoke we've spoken a lot. I'd like some questions. [Claudia Holman]: I have ideas, questions. I have all the kinds of things going in my head. And so I first thank you all for being here. And just also to to share, we look small small business advocates or or Vermont business advocates also, and I love hearing the success stories about, people who are at different stages in their career and and their companies staying on either within the family or being able to sell to other folks in the community. Just need to highlight that as something that we've heard from other businesses as those can be challenging. Mhmm. And so to know that that's happening in this industry is really important for us to know and to be able to highlight to folks. So So thank you for sharing that. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: You're welcome. [Claudia Holman]: Serve, learn, earn, so that's a a an organization in Vermont that is actually paying young people to work in trades and teaching them how to be good employees early, and that might be an interesting partner [Speaker 3 ]: Mhmm. [Claudia Holman]: Opportunity for all of you. That's right. What was the Fairlearn. Fairlearn. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: There's four organizations that are part of Fairlearn. That's BYCC, which is Vermont Youth Conservation Corp. You have Audubon Vermont. Vermont works for women and resource. [Claudia Holman]: Oh. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: So they all that's something that we really promote in this committee when we divide when we when we let our appropriations committee know what is what we really are looking for to promote into that's them. Mhmm. And that's one of the major ones because they do they do a really good job of of teaching our youth. And, you know, these are, I think, from sixteen to twenty five years of age. I see. So that might be a resource for you to chat with them to see if, you know, some of some of their students could possibly work for you and then intern or or apprenticeship mode Yeah. Once they've developed some skills. Yeah. Thank you. The thing [Jeremy Baker]: I noticed too is there's there's a lot of different efforts like ours, but they're all going in their own direction. And it would be awesome if we could join as allies and get more done with less effort. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Well, that's interesting you'd say that. We we we've been working for the last few years on on creating the office of workforce workforce expansion strategy strategy and workforce development. And we now have an executive director for workforce strategy and development, Sabina Haskell. She's she her position is under the governor. So, although she's an executive director, not a secretary or commissioner, she sits right below the governor. So she's appointed? She's appointed by the governor. She just started her job in January. January. We have a new constituted state workforce development board, where it was sixty three members before it's got only twenty seven now. I see. Much more nimble. Yes. But we'll create a lot of different subcommittees. So some of you may be asked to sit on those subcommittees as we move forward. We just had our first meeting last Monday. So that's starting to gear up. But the purpose of having that workforce development director there is to coordinate everything that's going on in the state, catalog it, and then how do we coordinate everybody so that we're going in the same direction. Yeah. We're not duplicating. Right. Right. We wanna make sure we're not duplicating efforts because that costs us a lot of money. Yeah. So we're trying to be more strategic on on how we find full money flows into the workforce. And, you know, this year has been a difficult year because of things that are happening in Washington. [Jeremy Baker]: What are what's happening in Washington? [David 'Dave' Bosch]: Yeah. They're doing something. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: I don't It [Jeremy Baker]: Depends on what channel you watch. It's it's [Chair Michael Marcotte]: cherry blossom person. [Jeremy Baker]: Oh, yeah. [Speaker 3 ]: If I [Chair Michael Marcotte]: was just there, they're gone. They've already gone by. But that's you know, so we're not we're not able to invest that much if you [Speaker 3 ]: Yes. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Because we have to reserve some funds because we don't know what's going on. Correct. [Jeremy Baker]: Similar as our businesses, you know, we know. We're we're nimble, but you can only do so much in uncertain times. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: But so we need to make sure that the money is that flow into workforce and economic development are we're not duplicating. [Jeremy Baker]: Yeah. Well, just to to throw it out there, our our event that we host host at the Randolph campus costs us about six thousand dollars a year. So, yeah, which for us isn't a very heavy lift, but, you know, if everybody's doing that and we are duplicating, then we're wasting money. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Right. Yeah. I think if, you know, if you coordinate with Department of Labor because they're they're hosting job fairs around the state as well, making sure that that, you know, you're doing your area. And then then they're not coming in the week after and [Jeremy Baker]: do The same thing. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: The same thing. But Yeah. Thank you. [Claudia Holman]: So all of these organizations that you've been, are they all nonprofits? Yeah. And so they're not connected to the state. See, that's something that we can actually I mean, they're connected in a way of funding, perhaps. Right. But that's something that that you know, and I and I know Sabina, so I can get with her, but that's something we can do. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Mhmm. Yeah. [Claudia Holman]: I can call these people and say, hey. Let's [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Exactly. [Claudia Holman]: Talk Yep. And make it a a better you know, who are you looking at? Who are you looking at? And and find those resources for the young people that are and saying, oh, you know, I wanna try this. So these are these are great. Thank you so much. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Yeah. I actually worked with the resource last year, in Middlebury, and, they were they had more of the younger adults looking for a second chance. Yeah. Which is great. Which is great. Yeah. And I actually have posted either three or four individuals at our store. I offered one person a job. Unfortunately, they weren't really ready at that point. But, one of my best customers actually hired two people, and one of them is Thriving. Just it's a good win. Yeah. [Jeremy Baker]: That's a that's [Chair Michael Marcotte]: a great sport. [Jeremy Baker]: That's a point we should also make. We host this event with the hopes of eventually getting an employee or two working directly for us. But we also understand that we just need them to be in the trades because those are our customers. Without customers, we're not in business. In the early stages hey there. Come on in. [Speaker 3 ]: Sorry. [Jeremy Baker]: That's okay. No apologies. You sucker. In the early stages of the event, we we thought, okay. How do we measure this for success? And we came to the conclusion that we didn't need to. We just needed to keep doing what we were doing, and and success would come in several ways. So so it's I guess, ultimately, what I'm saying is we're it's not a self serving, event. It's for the betterment of all of Vermont. [David 'Dave' Bosch]: So it it it seems like folks are are pretty connected to career technical education centers, and this committee is dealing with some of those issues. A little pause right now, but, you know, dealing with some of the governance issues and well, actually, going back to you know, we received a lot of, testimony around need for a better alignment, collaboration, between the CTEs and the high schools. Mhmm. And, you know, we're considering a bunch of options, but we were I'm curious as to well, I know Tim, you know, knows from the call, you know, what she thinks about things. But I was curious about how you think consult about improving access [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Yeah. [David 'Dave' Bosch]: Is to CTE and if you had any thoughts about, you know, how that works, you know, collaboration alignment, maybe even governance, that kind of stuff. Curious. [Claudia Holman]: So we have a friend out in New York who has a nonprofit, and he's gone to guidance counselors. This is a workbook to teach out to educate the guidance counselors so that the guidance that somehow the trades became you know, everybody had to go to college. You got the and I think that that actually will help having guidance counselors understand the opportunities in trade. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Yeah. I think I would echo that as well. But the biggest thing I think is is the money. The the money following the student. So when you're taking a portion of the high school's budget away from them by sending them to the CTE programs where, let's face it, about fifty percent of our kids would would thrive with the CTE program and become successful. But, unfortunately, they're not getting that opportunity, I believe, that I I think it's unfortunate because of that money issue. So but funding separately is huge. I think that that's that's probably the first step, honestly. [Jeremy Baker]: And then there'd be transportation challenges, I'm assuming, as well. I don't I don't have an answer for that, but getting the kids to and from where they need to be is is a challenge. [Claudia Holman]: So Jeremy brings up a very good point. At Bright Futures, we have scripts that come from, the north side to to mimic, and they get to Bright Futures earlier than the kids that come from Randolph, which is right down the street from the college campus because of the way the transportation happens. They go to their their feed school first and then have to get on the bus. So, you know, they arrive at you. Like, hey. Some bus is coming over the mountain. And then they get to the tech center. So they actually lose all this time, right, on a bus that they might not need to if they could just get there. [Jeremy Baker]: I think if you guys invested in helicopters, that would that would probably solve a lot of these issues. Yes. Sure. I'm I'm I'm good with electric. Yes. [Michael Boutin]: I have a sort of an idea and a question. Thanks. So I met with a constituent on Monday who's the executive director of Vermont afterschool, And she was talking about their focus with after school programming, really kind of broaden it to this vibrant after school programming across the state. And with the older grades, kinda middle school up, really focusing it on workforce readiness and and kind of being, you know, learning about you know, basically, kinda starting to learn about what's [Jeremy Baker]: Just an introduction. [Claudia Holman]: Yeah. Yeah. And [Michael Boutin]: trades and STEM stuff is all stuff that they're really interested in. They they've been doing programs. It might be an idea about connection [Jeremy Baker]: Absolutely. [Michael Boutin]: For those local especially for, like, a local store, can it be connected with the local after school programming, to do introductions to your work. Sure. [Jeremy Baker]: Oh, yeah. I'm sure you guys are familiar with, Carolyn Brannigan. [Claudia Holman]: Yeah. [Jeremy Baker]: She was my life skills teacher in middle school. Nice. Yeah. And I don't know that we offer those [Speaker 3 ]: Yeah. [Jeremy Baker]: That curriculum in the middle school anymore. [Michael Boutin]: I think they're trying to like, the the idea with trying to bring some of that into the after school program and also have it be, like, introduction to you know, so, like, starting to learn about CTE stuff in middle school Yes. School middle school, but through that after school program. Yeah. That was just an idea. [Jeremy Baker]: No. I I appreciate that. You. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Yeah. We [Claudia Holman]: actually have been able to do materials. We've we've donated materials to the school. Oh, great. Excellent. Funny is and I think we're just, like, one time waking up at sixty and realizing you have a wonderful button retirement team. [Speaker 3 ]: You know, we have a as [Claudia Holman]: a company now, we realized it's just sending them some fiber and some fasteners to say what we need to do. We need to actually go over there and and help them. So The [Michael Boutin]: nice thing about that is that, ideally, there's program programs throughout the state. Right? So your members from around the state [Claudia Holman]: can Yeah. [Jeremy Baker]: Oh, yeah. We cover the entire state. As you one of the handouts shows, we are all over the map. [Michael Boutin]: Yep. And then my other question my question is about kind of that, challenges or support such would be helpful for hiring teenagers or, you know, whether or not many many of your members, hire teenagers [Speaker 6 ]: We do. Challenge. Right? [Jeremy Baker]: I'll speak first. We we hire because we have seven locations throughout the state that or just the opportunity to try and get summer help through the local high school. So we do develop relationships, some stronger than others, in the places where we have our our shops. But we hire one to two students, but they don't seem to continue on after high school. They go off and they pursue a career or a college education, but we've at least introduced them to the industry. We have one very successful, young man that he started working for us. I I I work out of our Manchester office, but I travel all over the state because of my responsibilities within the company. But this individual started as a material handler in the yard and has worked his way up through the ranks, after going to UVM, and he actually came back to work for us. But that's just one of thousands. But we do hire summer help. We don't look for any financial assistance in doing that. We just wanna introduce them to the to the field. And what often happens is the contractors will come in and say, hey. Why are you working here? I'm work for me. You know? I I I think I can pay a little better, and the working conditions might be better. As an eighteen year old, you're thinking, yeah. That sounds great, which is fine because, once again, that that's another person that becomes a customer of ours. And I'll let others speak about their hiring practices with with the, high school students or others. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Yeah. And our our career center does a really good job. Nick, the instructor down there, does a great job getting kids out into the fields and and co opting. In fact, I think in the next week or so, a lot of the students will be be reaching out and and branching out with whether it be an electrical company or a contractor. I've hosted three or four individuals that come for a week or whatever and just seeing what a material handler does or they come in and maybe shadow me for a day as a purchaser and general manager of the store. So we work pretty closely with the career centers, and they do a great job co opting the kids out. And there's the insurance is paid for these kids to be able to to work out in the field. So there's there's no reason for us not to do it. [Jeremy Baker]: Yeah. [Claudia Holman]: So, Michael Mills has always had relationships with, the high schools, whether they're the career or not. We bring the children in. And, one of the things that we as employer as an employer have learned and what I believe can be put out to employers in Vermont today is that you have to meet these kids where they are. Right? They aren't texting. They are social media. This is a different way of communicating than we have. They need to have that opportunity to give them a break to say, hey. Go ahead and use your phone. But in addition, you need to say, I know nothing about Facebook. Why don't you show me when you get them in the office? I'm not that I'll ever use it, but once you do that, that we have to embrace them. [Speaker 3 ]: Yeah. [Claudia Holman]: It's so important that they understand if they belong in that office as much as I do and if they bring something to the table that I don't know. And so and that's out actually out in the yard as well or in in the lumber. Where does this fit for you? Where does this work? So, educating employers on how to deal with I what what are they called now? What's a generation of new I don't [Chair Michael Marcotte]: even know where [Speaker 3 ]: we're at. [Jeremy Baker]: I don't know. See? Outcomes. [Claudia Holman]: Groups. They're coming in, and and when they leave the sink, they they you know, help them with their transportation. We don't have public transportation here. So as an employer, help them. You know, you're paying we we we never pay minimal wage. We always pay, you know, above well above minimum wage. But my point is help these kids. Right? Because they can't take a three dollar train to get to you. So it's a it's a different mentality as well that I think that we have to foster going out. [Jonathan Cooper]: So thank you very much for providing some of the information that's here on this sheet as it's, you know, really helpful to be reminded that the industry is is about network. It's also about computer systems. Yeah. It's about HR. It's about a number of different, occupations. I know we've talked about how TTE touches on and has direct relationships with the work that's within your industry. Do you find that some of the credential programs at the community college or other of state, you know, college systems has been valuable to you? Are you seeing people are you having connections with those, sort of that branch of our education system as your value in sort of some of the, the credits that they're offering to the work that that that GM do? [Claudia Holman]: Absolutely. So VTC, which is now a lot so they have a phenomenal construction program, construction management, architectural design. We have several people being hired from there. When I first went to speak there as a member of this board, there were thirty to forty students there. Now sometimes we get six. With that said, they also have, at Champlain, excellent bookkeeping, Right? And business management. So does so does and those skills are very I love that program. They come in and no nonsense. They know how to how to work. So I would hire from those programs in a in a heartbeat. [Jeremy Baker]: But there's I think what you're getting is is there an alliance there, and there is not. Especially, you [Chair Michael Marcotte]: know, we're somewhat we have our VTC. We have [Jeremy Baker]: our VTC. We have our VTC. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: But it's not that we offer. Right. [Jeremy Baker]: That's not we don't have anything with community colleges. We don't have anything Not with the community. With all of those that you mentioned. So we [Jonathan Cooper]: get because I look at the map [Speaker 3 ]: of Yeah. [Jonathan Cooper]: Particular locations, thinking about, you know, the CVs in Brattleboro, in Bennington, and whether sort of that more local connection is something that's, you know, that has some value or could add some value to, students, particularly where there's transportation [Speaker 3 ]: Yes. [Jonathan Cooper]: To being close to the resource the the resource for the the skills that that you may Yeah. [Jeremy Baker]: Develop. Unfortunately, nobody can afford to live in Manchester, Vermont. So [Bill Smith]: True. True. [Jeremy Baker]: Everybody commutes to work there. [Jonathan Cooper]: That's true. Betsy. [Jeremy Baker]: I'm just telling it the way it is. Yeah. [Speaker 3 ]: I I [Jeremy Baker]: I commute there because I can't afford to live in [Michael Boutin]: Manchester. I'm [Speaker 3 ]: I looking at, you know, the the different jobs within the within the profession with your particular work. I've and I see some things that definitely require some certification, CD drivers. I've got are there other ones? Because, you know, part of what our committee is always looking for is is is finding opportunities to to give people the credentials that they can then, you know, use across the profession. Sure. So are there other ones? I mean, I [Jeremy Baker]: I can start with that. Yes. I don't know if there's crane training, which is Not required. That's a federal requirement that OSHA manages, I guess, or or administers. But in order to in order for us to put an employee through crane training, it doesn't make sense unless they already have a CDL because that wallboard crane is mounted on a CDL, vehicle that's required you're required to have the CDL. Forklift training is another certification, but you have to be eighteen years old in order to have a forklift certification. There there are other specific certifications, but they're they're typically not something that someone young can acquire. You have to be a certain age. So was that, like, a question? Or anybody else wanna jump in on that? [Speaker 3 ]: Are there other ones in there? Like, I have I have no idea if Sure. If being an estimator requires Yes. School, for example. Yeah. Even if it's just a class or two. [Jeremy Baker]: Estimators typically are college graduates. K. Yeah. [Speaker 3 ]: So so there are specific things that I guess I'm trying to think of what we could do to help you get the training so that people don't need it. [Claudia Holman]: At Beckle Mills, we aren't college educated in our estimating department, and a lot of our people are coming out of being contractors. And the NRLA, which is our bigger, offer deep and remain classes and that sort of thing. But, yes, to that, if you love somebody who can't raise blueprints and learn take off skills. Absolutely. I think the VTC now I'm sorry to keep calling because Vermont State College offers [Jeremy Baker]: Vermont State University. So [Claudia Holman]: he said we're gonna be twenty years. So they've offered a certification as well. But, yes, we could do something with that. [Jeremy Baker]: Yeah. And we develop we being the NRLA, which also there's the Lumber and Billing Material Dealers Foundation, which is associated with the NRLA. That foundation focuses specifically on education. And they provide these programs. They develop these programs in house. So there may be opportunities there to connect high school students with some of the courses that are already developed by the LBMDF. It's another opportunity that should be considered because it would get them a jumpstart into the industry in that capacity. One thing then [Speaker 3 ]: Yes. That also ties them in a little bit. Yes. I see there's a a track. Yeah. [Jeremy Baker]: And they say they either say, wow. This is really interesting. I love it. I want more, or I don't ever wanna see that again. And as but the earlier they are making those decisions, the better. I still don't know what I wanna do, but I think time's running out anyways. So [Speaker 3 ]: Like, forklift, you mentioned that you have to be eighteen years old. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Correct. [Speaker 3 ]: And is that a state or is that a [Jeremy Baker]: federal Federal. Yes. There has been some discussion at the at different different levels of trying to reduce that to sixteen, but you you know, it's not like driving a car. I teach I myself teach all of our employees the forklift training portion of things because I want it to be done consistently. And I try to scare the hell out of everybody by saying, this is a fifteen thousand pound piece of steel that doesn't care what your name is, where you live, how much you make. If if you don't treat it with respect and it starts to tip over and you make a bad decision to try to get out of that forklift while it's happening, it's over. You're not going home because fifteen thousand pounds of steel is is not gonna be forgiving. So I'm on the fence about making it younger because it's a huge responsibility. Even with some folks that for us have worked for us for years and years, they are very good at what they do, but they become a little bit complacent. They start to develop a few bad habits. And fortunately, they just remain lucky for a period of time and nothing catastrophic happens and hasn't happened, but I would not be an advocate of lowering the age requirement for the forklift certification. You talked to a career center about providing that training to group testing? No. We've had a discussion about that. I just can't remember in what forum that was. I think the thought the discussion may have ended because you have to be eighteen. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: You're giving them. Right? Not when you're not when they're working in the career center. [Jeremy Baker]: Really? [Chair Michael Marcotte]: As long as they're being trained by as long as it's a school function Yeah. And they're being trained that that students are because it's all has to do with labor laws. [Jeremy Baker]: Okay. So you're saying you could teach potentially if there was an opportunity? [Chair Michael Marcotte]: I know North Country Career Center teaches heavy equipment. Yeah. And you don't have to be eighteen. You have to be eighteen to to get your license and to get certified. Right. But you can be trained At an earlier age. At an earlier age through through the career center. Interesting. [Jeremy Baker]: Yeah. We'd love to introduce that to the career center. It's a forklift training. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Other things that you're looking at, you know, even using skill solver that can't do that until you're eighteen at a at a at work. Yeah. But you can learn that skill at the career level. [Jeremy Baker]: And that what what happens with us is if we hire somebody new and they have no experience, that process to get them ready for the actual driving test that certifies them takes months. So that would be a huge help to our industry if there was some opportunity to introduce that to the CTEs. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: And there might be a career center that would be willing to the one or two around the state that Yeah. Willing to work with, you know, your your members. And Yeah. [Jeremy Baker]: And I'm sure that we could somehow come up with providing a forklift to be utilized, which those things are cheap. They're only eighty thousand dollars now. [David 'Dave' Bosch]: Be afraid, Alfred. One zero two one zero. [Jeremy Baker]: The electric ones, anyways, which is the direction that we're starting to go. We went slowly into that pool at the shallow end, and now we're waiting out more because we found that they are reliable. They are the the the user acceptance is there from the operators. We've gone through a a couple of winter seasons with them, and they're reliable. So that's where we're gonna continue to invest when we can, when it makes sense. [Claudia Holman]: One of the things that we've heard pretty consistently from career centers across the state is that it's hard to get teachers who can teach these trades because they can make so much more money in the trade. And they also have to become they have to get licensure or they have to get teacher training in addition to it. And so I'm you know, this is like brainstorming, and I'm sure you've been thinking about this too. Are there ways that you can encourage people or give them a year or two to go do that and then come back? Or, you know, is there some [Jeremy Baker]: From our businesses? [Claudia Holman]: Businesses. Yeah. Is that is that something that because, you know, we we can own. Right? [Speaker 6 ]: Well Such a [Jeremy Baker]: big That's like, the risk is we give them that opportunity, and they love it, and they never come back. But at the same time, they would be providing a very helpful beneficial service to our industry indirectly. But the the the challenges we're faced with in recruiting and retaining talent in the employee pool is it's like we're back in the COVID times. You know, we feel like anyways for a while after COVID, it was like, okay. You know, people are coming back to work now. This is great. And now it's I don't wanna be disrespectful, but it's like, man, we've got we have positions we have to fill. We're forced to hire the best of the worst applicants. And I know that that sounds really mean and disrespectful, but from my perspective, that's just the truth. And there's a constant churn of you know, we've we've got our core group of employees that are committed to being Archimedes employees that see the value of the benefit package and all that. But then there's this little circle that keeps churning in and out of the company. Somebody comes in, they go out. Somebody comes in, they go out. Every week or two, our human resources department sends out an email to say, These employees have left. Please welcome these employees. And it's it's discouraging because a lot of them aren't recognizing the opportunity they have, and they're not giving it the chance. Because a lot of those positions that churn require physical labor, and nobody wants to perform physical labor labor any. [Claudia Holman]: And that takes me to the somebody who's getting near the end of their career. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Yeah. [Claudia Holman]: I only encourage them to stay in it [Speaker 3 ]: Yeah. [Claudia Holman]: Five more years to teach Sure. So that we can right. So what are That's [Jeremy Baker]: the better fit. [Claudia Holman]: So that's my so what are those kind of opportunities? And I'm hoping that you're thinking about those because I think that's that partnership that we need with [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Yeah. [Claudia Holman]: Those centers. We'll probably do that. I have five contractors that came to Bright Futures, all at [Jeremy Baker]: the rate [Claudia Holman]: time. Who have come to me since then, and they wanna be more involved. The young people just to go and take that team that are the teachers right now, they got to meet the governor this year. They got to come up and get an award with their student, their shining star student, and they would shake the hand of the governor. And that was such an honor because they work hard. And so the the issue I think does to that teacher certification piece. Most of these are master carpenters, and they and they have a way of working. And I would love to find out for everybody here what the requirements are Mhmm. To have them teach. Because when they come and sit at my desk and say, what can I do to be more involved? I can say, don't get certified and and and teach even if you're doing it two days a week or part time. So where would I get some? That's Ruth Durkee at the Agency of Education. Durkee? Durkee, j u r, d u r k. [Jeremy Baker]: Because a lot of our retirees, they don't really wanna retire, but financially, it's the time that makes the most sense for them. And we ask, what are you gonna do now? And they say, I have no idea. So this I don't have any questions that we have to answer in my notebook, but I have some things that you've given us to to look look into. So [Chair Michael Marcotte]: And, you know, it's not just at the high school the high school level, but it's all also at the adult CTE level. Those are two separate two separate things that are going on. Yes. And so the adult level is more in the evenings, so we may have some some people that have an interest in in providing that training in the evenings too. So they yeah. They so they should be talking with with their career centers. Also, in the group, they're key, but the career center directors can get them connected and and talk to them on how they can move forward. [Jeremy Baker]: The adults shouldn't be left out of this discussion. You know, oftentimes they are. We focus on the youth. We focus on youth, but adults looking for a fresh start or another another challenge, I think, are a big part of the discussion that oftentimes get left out. [Speaker 3 ]: Like, I think of this master electrician issue where they don't have certification to teach. They have all the information, but they have to go through additional steps just to be able to teach. Correct. And you can't tell me they can't teach Right. At current state. Is that a barrier that we are putting in place To require? For federal or or for state? Like because, again, I mean, if it a master electrician, you can't tell me they can't teach it. Well, [Chair Michael Marcotte]: you do. [Jeremy Baker]: They're the subject matter expert. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Right. When they know the subject matter, they really know how to teach it. [Jeremy Baker]: Correct. Yeah. Some people are really good at what they do, but just don't have the ability to teach. Understood. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: I mean, there there's a lot more to teaching this. So I think there is a process to it. I think there's a need. I mean, all our teachers that are teaching all the other subjects, they they have to have credentials too. So it's no different. I think for them, it's just a little difficult because the pay scale is a whole lot different [Speaker 3 ]: Yeah. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Teaching than it is being out in the trades like that. So [Jeremy Baker]: Well, if you've tried to get a plumber or electrician or anybody at your home, when you get to Bill, you probably have a little sticker shock. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Yeah. I started a master electrician. [Jeremy Baker]: Yeah. He's doing probably quite well. [Speaker 3 ]: Yeah. [Jeremy Baker]: Well because the end of the cul de sac used to be doctors and lawyers and accountants. And now it's truck drivers, electricians, and carpenters, which is not a problem in my mind. Mhmm. They're finally getting the the money that they've deserved and earned for years. [Bill Smith]: I'm with you. [Jeremy Baker]: I don't know what to do about it. Well I'm right with that. I'm right there with you. [Speaker 3 ]: It's pretty simple. I mean, we would have to just say it's not a requirement. Yeah. And Well, I I [Claudia Holman]: can't disagree more. There are there are people who I mean, people who can teach and people who can't teach and people who But [Jeremy Baker]: if there was a vetting process [Claudia Holman]: And there is. [Jeremy Baker]: Yeah. So what you're saying is Yeah. There's nothing to change. We just need to introduce more people into that opportunity to [Chair Michael Marcotte]: see if they can actually do it. Yes. Okay? We all have to remember they're teaching. You know, generally, there are students that are in high school. So Yeah. [Jeremy Baker]: Yeah. Well, we've run into that with employees, like, with succession planning. Some of our best employees don't want anything to do with training their replacement. That's not what I signed up for. I don't wanna do it. I'm not good at it. Leave me alone and just let me retire. So I think we're at ten. Right? We are at ten. So there's one thing else I'd like to say, and it's kind of a joke. But do you know how to turn forty dollars into four hundred? Put forty dollars of gas in your car and drive to work. That's what it boils down to right now because I get this email from the Department of Labor, I think, weekly, sixty eight hundred jobs available, eight thousand jobs available, all these jobs available. We need to we need to get them, whoever them is, back to work. And we need we need to include the the youth in that process so that we can teach them good work ethic. If their parents haven't, which I'm gonna go on the record as saying, I don't believe parents are teaching their kids good work ethic anymore. They have a different definition of what that is. And then reintroducing adults into the industry that maybe want a second career, second chance. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Thank you all for joining us this morning. We certainly appreciate the conversation. It was [Jeremy Baker]: So did we accomplish what we came here for? Because we wanted you to know that we care. Do you you you probably know that already, but I wanna ask everybody else in here. Do you do you feel like we care? Okay. Yeah. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Just so [Jeremy Baker]: If you don't care you're preaching for the choir. Yeah. If it doesn't [Claudia Holman]: so much. I've walked away with emails and names. [Tim Combs]: Yeah. [Claudia Holman]: And you are allowing you you've given a lot to us. So thank you. We're gonna go out for it for you. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Good. And if any [Jeremy Baker]: you know, I I think it would be funneled through Bill if you had any follow-up. Yeah. He's [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Well, I think if you have, you know, if you're having a hard time finding an email address, the email integrates a lot of these people we deal with. [Michael Boutin]: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. [Jeremy Baker]: In your corner. Yeah. I'm in your corner with you. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Well, thank you again for joining us. [Jeremy Baker]: Thank you very much. We appreciate your time. Much. We're rooting for you. Let's put it that way. [David 'Dave' Bosch]: Much. Thank you. [Claudia Holman]: Can this respond? [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Yeah. That'd be great. [Claudia Holman]: I think it's a making the obvious thing for you all to see what they have to say. It was certainly for me. It's [Chair Michael Marcotte]: I know. And I think the most important thing about that survey is we had over two [Speaker 3 ]: hundred students who had that many [Jeremy Baker]: Hundred and seventy eight replied. Replied. Yeah. Oh, so [Claudia Holman]: That's the best. [Speaker 3 ]: Interest in what we're doing. Yes. It wasn't gonna require. That's really Instead. Thank you, [Tim Combs]: Paul. Have a great day. [Claudia Holman]: Thank you. A different thing. It's true. Yeah. We'll see you on lunch. Yeah. See you. Take a moment. Thank you. Well, hello. Yeah. [Jeremy Baker]: Yeah. [Claudia Holman]: Yeah. [Speaker 3 ]: I'm not arguing with you so much right now, but not only the data here. [Claudia Holman]: We should talk about it. It's like I Well, there are. I mean, [David 'Dave' Bosch]: we're clear. It's not doing all that. So we just [Claudia Holman]: Sorry. Yeah. We'll break it down. We'll teach anybody. And tell her. Hey. [David 'Dave' Bosch]: How are you? [Speaker 3 ]: I'm here. We're with you. But [Claudia Holman]: We're still alive. Just so [Speaker 3 ]: television. [Claudia Holman]: This that's not everybody. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Okay. Let's not me. Know. Yep. I don't know if you wanna I can see. So we're switching now from our lumber dealers now to continue to talk about TIFF. And, yeah, I have a customer with us. Good morning. Thank you for joining us. Two, three, four, five, six. So we're good to go. [Speaker 3 ]: Okay. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: We got abandoned here. [Adam Necrason]: That's alright. [Andrew Foley]: Mister chair, members of the committee, my name is Adam Nick Krasen, Nick Krasen Group here with Hula Ride Your Bike, and I'm here to really help you connect with Russ Scully and Andrew Foley. And so please anticipate me providing an introduction and overview, and then hearing from Russ back to me for some more connecting and then to Andrew and then questions and answers. And so a little unusual, but appreciate that opportunity and to, you know, help Tayo's here with me and hopefully we'll have the screen share on and off too, because there's some key slides that we wanna share with you. So first at the highest level of overview, this is really exciting to be bringing you something that is happening at the intersection of entrepreneurial spirit, housing development, growing the economy, jobs, and, cleaning up Lake Champlain. And to jump to the very end, the legislation you're considering, we support that legislation, and at the bottom line is need it because but for Chip, the excitement we're about to showcase for you cannot happen. Okay? And so we're gonna unpack that together a little bit more, but this is, going now for the overview of our time with you. We're gonna introduce Hula, which is a exciting job generator in Northwest Vermont. You're going to hear about the, Hula adjacent site that where the proposed housing development that we're going to be talking about wants to happen. Russ Scully will be talking about a bunch of that. Then we're going to transition over to Andrew with the Jonathan Rose company, who is the nationally experienced project partner that will talk about their experience nationally and then get into a little bit of the positive aspects of the legislation because we're really here to do two things: showcase this project that is under development and support the legislation from the Senate that you're working on. Okay? And so with that kind of high level overview, we're gonna start by showcasing a a a few slides just to get you oriented. Where are we? Because we're bringing you something that is wants to be the largest housing development in Vermont history. At the back one to the c portal. Here we are. Okay. So you're going to be learning about the Secord area in Burlington, which is in the south end. And what you're going to be hearing about is a thirteen acre site we're going to get to where there are three owners trying to move towards building over a thousand units of affordable housing with a mix of affordability involved. And there's a lot of excitement at this site with some local zoning that's been created. And then really what's exciting is that the laws you've been creating, the public policy you've been creating is working because it's attracting development. Some of you may know, and for others to learn about, you've passed this act two fifty legislation that, you know, creates in, community centers signals for ways you can get pre permitted. And so this is an example of where local zoning is in pre permitting and active fifty is pre permitting trying to say to development, we know you want regulatory certainty so that you can bring your investment interest to somewhere and know what the rules will be. And this is an example of working. The third big component of this this model of local zoning that's predictable, active fifty that's predictable, is the infrastructure component and the public private partnership that's needed to make it happen. And so you this committee holds the third key piece, really the keystone to all this happening. But first, let's just give you a quick overview of Hula, the which is a co working space that is a has venture capital associated with it. It's incubating businesses, and it's a real huge success. And Russ is going to be talking about this, but the so that he can have the screen when he's up. You know, Russ Scully is the, you know, founder of Hula, and he's gonna be telling you about a lot of awesome stuff that's happening there. You're all invited to come for a tour. We know you're busy, and so there's you'll get email offering Monday, May fifth. If you wanna come up and get shown around Hula, we'd welcome that opportunity. Tayo, the next slide for you to see. This is the Hula site. It's a a a former manufacturing plant that Roskullian partners have really turned into a a huge job generator. And just to keep today's overview flowing, you know, this is the site where there's these thirteen acres. This is Hula, where all those people are are working. And over here, neck next slide, is where this parcel is right here's hula. This is the south end of Burlington. So are you familiar with pine street? This this is the new Southern connector that's almost done connecting to one eighty nine. And there are three owners of this parcel, the city, Champlain College, and Hula, and they have a predevelopment agreement that city council has approved. This is kind of a big deal. This is like this is the model of what you folks can happen, where multiple property owners on a highly town center site are working with city council and have a predevelopment agreement with the city that's been approved. The city is not just a property owner. They're the, you know, local zoning regulator. And so we're going to with with that overview, we'll go to Ross Scully to tell you about who's Hula, what are they all about, why is he interested in, you know, housing on this site and and some of the challenges that we face and why we're so excited about the keystone, which is the CHIP provision, which is in your hands now. And so with that, we'll go to Russ Scully. [Tim Combs]: Good morning, everyone. Hopefully, you can hear me okay. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: We can. Thank you. [Tim Combs]: Hey. Thank you for that overview, Adam. That was very thorough. I'm here to add a little more color and just add in a little bit more texture to what Adam already shared. But, yeah, as he pointed out, you know, we started Hula we launched Hula in twenty twenty just after the after COVID. The the priority for in creating Hula was really to create a a workforce engine for the state. And in doing so, you know, we we curated the space to really look for companies that were hiring quickly. We were interested in really growing jobs as rapidly as we could. These are companies primarily in the technology space because those were the kinds of jobs that we really wanted to attract to Vermont. And in in in an effort to help them in growing the the workforce, we set up at that point, we set up a venture fund so that we could help capitalize a lot of the companies who are looking to raise money in order to grow fast and hire more people. And so we created a we we we built a syndicate of local investors in the area who are all excited about helping to further grow Vermont opportunities and creating additional workforce opportunities. And in doing so, we were able to really help launch a lot of companies, and grow workforce at, at a rate that we hadn't seen before. And so as you saw from that slide, you know, it's a it's a fourteen acre campus, you know, right on the shores of Lake Champlain. It's over fifteen hundred square feet of office space, coworking space. We've got about a hundred different companies represented in those buildings, and, you know, as and now we're five years into it. And one of the things we've really learned from being really close with a lot of the entrepreneurs and business owners is that, you know, the biggest the biggest log jam they're facing right now is just the ability to hire people because of the lack of housing. And so I know that you're all familiar with this problem, but, you know, we hear it day day in and day out. There's a lot of interesting companies that are really working to try to grow. They're trying to attract the right type of talent, and, you know, they're doing everything they can to really sell the area, particularly for people that might be coming in from out of state. And the challenge they're facing right now is that they just they can't kinda they can't complete the deal because the lack of housing is really creating a problem in terms of trying to get people to to come in and accept the job at one of these companies when it's really challenging to complete that final piece and and locate a place where they can live. So early on in this project, we identified the fact that, listen, we're gonna be we're building something at scale here. So we were really thinking about the fact that we'd have a thousand people in this building mixing and mingling and working and connecting every single day. We had parking on-site for three hundred cars. We were advised that we really need to fill that gap with another four hundred parking spaces. Fortunately for us, this parking lot that you saw in one of those slides had, ample space for us. The short story is that we we initially started out with leasing four hundred spaces for that parking space for that parking lot. And then ultimately, we went into a purchasing contract sometime shortly after that and ended up buying the property back in two thousand one. And soon after that, we realized, you know, coming out of COVID, there's just less need for parking cars, and what we really needed to do is focus on housing. So that's when we started down the road of going to the city and talking to them about rezoning this area to allow for residential because at the time, it wasn't. That was a, you know, lengthy process, but we made it through. I think there was a lot of combined interest, obviously, as you know, with a a housing crisis that everyone's kinda feeling across the country, particularly in Vermont. So we had a lot of support in helping us get the zoning change made to allow for us to think about building houses on that site. Fast forward to today, we're now we've got a we have a development partner with Jonathan Rose Companies. Andrew Foley, obviously, is on the call. You're gonna hear from him shortly. Really excited about this development partner. These guys are the, you know, the nation's leading expert on building affordable housing. I think they really fit the spirit and intention of what we're trying to create. So we feel like we have the right partner to see this project through with us. And now what we're really trying to do is figure out, you know, there's there's some challenges and some headwinds that we're facing that are not unique to Burlington, but these are, you know, high cost of construction coming out of COVID, just higher cost of borrowing money than we've been used to in the past. And so the the the biggest challenge for this project right now is really trying to get the economics to pencil out. And so that's why we're here today. That's why this this bill is so important, particularly to developers. These are developments that wouldn't occur without some sort of help. We would need some kind of subsidy or some sort of creative financing and assistance in order to build housing. You know, the the dilemma we're all really facing is that we're in a housing crisis, but the current economic situation doesn't permit developers to build housing profitably. We're, there's a there's a huge gap in the financing of trying to cover the construction costs and keep the rent rates or rent rolls to, you know, market rate conditions. So in that's the challenge we're facing today. That's why we're here talking to you is essentially trying to figure out how we're gonna close this gap. We really need support from the state and from the city. And so until, you know, we sort of figure out a creative solution towards helping us get there, we're really you know, we're still at the starting blocks. We really can't get we can't move forward until we sort of solve these problems. So that's what we're here to talk about, and I'm just I'm just excited. Thank you, Adam, for getting us this far. Really appreciate everyone's time this morning. I'm in here mostly just to answer questions and just help color in sort of what we're trying to do here, but I see this as a huge opportunity for the state. It's a huge opportunity for for Burlington. And, yeah, we're just looking forward to trying to break ground on this project so that we can create some necessary housing to keep this workforce engine going. [Andrew Foley]: Great, Russ. Thank you. Mister chair, any questions at this point, or would you like us to forge ahead and do questions? [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Yeah. I think if we go forward, you know, yeah, I'll I'll [Andrew Foley]: Understood. So as we're gonna segue to Andrew and, you know, to to do that, a a few things along the way, to connect from what Russ had just said to the legislation then over to Andrew. It's really public infrastructure, the sewers, the streets, the things that are traditionally considered kind of the the local government's role in creating the infrastructure for development to happen. And Andrew can really talk about that, but there's the challenge is that the project finances themselves can't do the housing development and cover the public infrastructure. And so why we're so interested in the CHIP bill is that it's the creative tool for the public infrastructure to get in place so that the development can occur. I wanna be clear. If I had mentioned the three property owners at Champlain College, the City of Burlington, and Hula, ride your bike, and they're working together with a lot of partners, Champlain Housing Trust for affordable housing, VHFA, the full gamut of all the players that you would expect. We're we're this is not our first place where we've gone. Treasurer Picek is highly involved. Governor Scott's administration has been super engaged and helpful. But as we transition to a little bit about Jonathan Rose, this one thought for all of you, because we're mindful you're from all over the state. We see this project as of statewide significance. You know, the housing challenge is a lag on the state's economy. If we can get this project built, it creates not just more housing for the northwest part of the state, but more income tax, more job growth, more of the things that we all are in it together for. And so at this scale, it's really something that we suggest is of statewide significance, and so far that's been the reception that we've gotten. Now, Theo, for about the Jonathan Rose Company, and Andrew will fill this in more, but some proof points just for you to see because they are one of the nation's preeminent kind of impact minded developers with decades of track record. And so it makes sense that they're the partner for Russ that Russ Scully has sought out and the Hula crowd because they're the do the the right thing development community. And but we just wanted to see, and Andrew can talk about this, but they've done a number of projects around the country. And this is just to create some visuals that their track record here of innovation, affordability, smart growth, all of that. And I think Andrew will talk about Valle Verde and Bronx and tail next slide. Know, you can see some work here in Philadelphia, in Washington, neat green roof. You know, these folks are gonna bring all of Vermont values to this affordability, climate friendly energy policy, you know, smart transportation hub, all of the things that this building has sent signals to the development community to be mindful of are in the DNA of this development crowd. So they're not being pushed into these concepts that the general assembly is for [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Foley. [Adam Necrason]: Thanks, Adam, and delighted to be here. So I for the record, I'm Andrew Foley, director of development for Jonathan Rose Companies. So we are a developer and owner of green, affordable, and mixed income housing across the country. We own, residential properties in fourteen states in the District of Columbia at this point, nineteen thousand units roughly, across the country. We're based in New York, but have you know, are are are proud that we get to work in communities across the nation that are committed to building mixed income inclusive communities. So when Russ and his team reached out to us, we were we were immediately taken by the potential of what's going on in the south end, not only for the opportunity to build up to fourteen hundred units of housing that needed to address the challenges of that's facing that are being faced across the country. But for the catalytic impact that that housing will have on generating jobs and expanding economic engine that is the hula and the ecosystem for for Vermont. So we think that this project, while it's about housing, the housing has so much potential to broaden the economic impact for the state, in a really exciting way. So I think, yeah, for those of you who've been to hula, you can feel the energy as you're walking through the halls and the the startups that are there, the the expansion that's happening. As Russ has pointed out, the the the missing piece is housing for, the workforce and housing for a range of incomes. So we're we're really, delighted to be brought to the table to help address that challenge. So Adam pointed to a number of projects that we have have done at Illustrate our work, projects in New York, Philadelphia, Washington, DC. We're also developing out in Los Angeles and Chicago and Georgia. And, I I think just just to summarize, I think the the common thread through all of our projects are really, I think, three things. One is, you know, we're we're proud to be at the forefront of of of green building and developing high performance projects. So we've we've currently we just finished building the largest passive house multifamily project in North America, in East Harlem. You know, our founder, Jonathan Rose, since the late eighties before LEED and some of these acronyms we now, understand is our common place before a lot of that green building movement hap was happening, Jonathan was was really leading the field in incorporating green building into our work. And we understand how important that is for Vermont and and for the city of Burlington to to continue to be at the forefront of building low carbon, zero carbon buildings and communities. The second thing is that all of our work includes a range of affordable income ranges for so affordable workforce market rates. So the projects that were shown on that those slides and happy to provide more examples, Both have housing, homeownership, rental, range of incomes, and then also the amenities that are needed to to really round out the communities and have the social impact that, we find so important. We we we believe that housing is a platform for, economic development, social impact, and so all of our, communities reflect those goals. And then thirdly, and perhaps most importantly for this conversation is that all of our projects are public private partnerships in one way or the other. We are, in in just about any example I can think of, we are working in partnership with municipalities and with the and with states to come up with creative financing mechanisms. Because when we're trying to do the deeply impactful development, it takes rolling up our sleeves to to get these projects financed. And so we as as Russ has mentioned and happy to elaborate on this is that, you know, while the crisis the housing crisis has never been more severe, many of the challenges to building housing have also never been so great. And the cost of construction, the cost of interest. I know there's been a lot of good testimony throughout this legislative session really elaborating on this. So I we know that that's not news to you. And so that is why, you know, we believe that, you know, CHIP is such a a fundamentally important piece for our project to be able to move forward. And, you know, we're really pleased with the the way it's been crafted and the flexibility that it provides that gives us a a range of options to find the the best way forward in in utilizing this this resource. [Andrew Foley]: Great. Thank you, Andrew. And so one more minute and then over to you, mister chair, for committee questions just to call out a few things. You know, we very much understand CHIP is the is is a new model on the TIF district conversation, and we appreciate that, you know, the project based focus. As it relates to a few of the big key touchpoints, you know, with or without but for language, but for a chip, these folks can't move forward, so they kind of squarely fit in the the notion of we only want these tools being used in places that really need it. And then affordability. You've the project's committed to affordability by government policy in two ways already. The the city zoning with inclusionary zoning and, like, the act two fifty law, which says if you include in these places, if you include this certain amount of affordability, then you are pre act two fifty approved. And it was the big thing two years ago, I think, here. And so nice job in that regard because here's what it attracted. And so do know that as you're talking about affordability, it's baked in a couple different ways already for us. And so, for sure, it's included. And then one last thing as we transition, feeding many birds with the one seed here is on display because for anything to happen at this site, first, a combined sewer overflow, the south end combined sewer overflow has to be fixed. Right now, this is the last of Burlington and Lake Champlain's big CSOs. It's bad when it rains. It's not a good thing, and so this project as part of what we're talking about, when we're talking about infrastructure, and the city just had a good voter supported bond measure that will help in some ways on this, but we really need to break up the CSO to be able to stand up anything on this site. And so it's not just our project financing. It's that the public infrastructure is literally, like, no more water going on here until you get it separated from the storm system. And so and that really motivates Russ. You know? The the cleaning the lake is, you know, the first passion in the housing is, you know, associated with that. So with that, questions and Andrew's prepared to talk about Chip or the details. [Tony Micklus]: In the CHIP program, we've talked about a variety of different funding mechanisms. One being more traditional of the municipality bonds for the money and they put in the infrastructure you build on top of it. The other one is the municipality doesn't bond for the money. You absorb the cost of that and then the municipality refunds you. And a third one, which we've talked about a little bit, but I don't think is in the bill, is the the concept of tax stabilization where they just give you a break on the taxes, but you cover it. Out of those three options, which one do you like and why? Andrew? [Adam Necrason]: Yeah. Great question. We've been having a lot of conversations as we've been reviewing the bill about that those options. As I think you've heard through others, there's there's pros and cons to each. And I I would say that I think one of the benefits of this of the bill is that it provides flexibility to implement different approaches without having without narrowing in on one specific approach. So we have we we have had projects in TIF districts that have done kind of what and, again, I'll I'll just say I'm not a TIF expert, but what we consider to be more the conventional TIF approach of of public bonds, for for public infrastructure roads and streets where, you know, we've participated in projects like that. We've pro we have participated in projects where there is a a reimbursement direct into the project. You know, states like color Colorado and Chicago where we've done some some TIF work. And then to your third to the third option that you've you've pointed to, which we recognize is not in the bill of tax stabilization, that is a common approach throughout the country. Here in New York as well, you know, that is the primary way to capture the value of future taxes and and kind of, you know, finance the the things we want today with the the benefits for tomorrow. So all of them have, you know, specific benefits, and it's not clear to us which one will ultimately be the the right tool for us as we continue to work with the city of Burlington and our financing team to really craft this. I think one of the things though that just for the the we think it's important that the flexibility, is provided so that the the law doesn't narrow in on, one tool that may not be, you know, the right application for for all circumstances. [Andrew Foley]: Thank you, Andrew. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Options. [Claudia Holman]: Thank you. Really appreciate the presentation and allowing us to have more discussion on this. So I've heard nine hundred units, eleven hundred units, up to fourteen hundred units. So what what so many questions about that. But what brings you to this number? What makes you know, right, that if you build it, they will come? I mean, how does this you know, I know we need housing, but what are and and if I'm getting into, like, trade secrets, you can say that. [Adam Necrason]: No. Not at all. Great question. Yeah. We we we hear the numbers kinda flying around. So let me just for the for to kinda set the record straight. I think what we are targeting is up to fourteen hundred units in a zoning planned unit development, right, which will we're hopeful will be making its way through the city's process this summer, which will give the ability to develop up to fourteen hundred units. And that's what we intend to be, ensuring that this the wastewater capacity, the traffic, you know, all of the impacts assume up to that amount. The ability to deliver up to that amount will will vary and and depending on on on market demand. It also clearly won't happen all at once. Right? So I think we're focused on the initial phase, and even phasing some site infrastructure over time, because we know that, you know, we're talking about really creating a neighborhood, on a parking lot that used to be used by factory workers that worked across the street. Right? So we are we are place making on a on a thirteen acre scale, so it doesn't happen overnight. But, yes, I we would say that collectively amongst across those thirteen acres, the zoning provides the opportunity for roughly fourteen hundred units in total. [Claudia Holman]: In one part is what you're saying or multiple engine. Yep. Yeah. Multiple you you mean, he said [Adam Necrason]: Yeah. So so and, you know, there'll there'll be much more on this as we continue to work with the with city planning on it, but, you know, the the site wide plan unit development for the thirteen acres is, I think, the next step in the process. And and looking at the comprehensive site infrastructure solutions required to support, you know, such a a large expansion of the south end. [Andrew Foley]: So great question, Representative Groening, and it it touches it let me just thread it into the bill a little bit in this way, and to color things a little more. The city has worked to kind of do advanced work on this site with the zone the Secord Zoning District. And, you know, this is like your active fifty bill and attempt to, like, really signal ahead of time. And so on the site, there's in these areas, you can go four stories. In these areas, you can go six. And then in these areas, you can go eight. And so they're kind of working with the city now on the algorithm of how do you match those densities limitations with the financing. And all along the way, the act two fifty law says twenty percent of that will be a defined amount of affordable housing. And so those are really the main kind of factors, but Russ's ambition is as much as possible. And so that's where I think you get some of the out loud thinking on nine hundred to fourteen hundred. Well, fourteen hundred would be the ideal. And then along the way that, you know, affordability stuff from the city and the active fifty are there for them. The now into the bill, because I learned this from Andrew this morning. A lot of prep has gone into kind of coming to you folks. You know, the the reality is is that's there there's going to be some steps to be building this full site out. It's not just a one off. And how Chip kind of feathers into that, there could be some some chip, some more chip, and then a third chip. You know? And we know sewer and infrastructure need to be really addressed ahead of time and all figured out, but that when Andrew likes the flexibility, part of it is because it's not just one moment where we're doing and and some of the other TIFs I've been involved in, let's call them the Burlington specials. You know? So we've been in the district. We've we've done a lot of this work with the general assembly on behalf of development interests, and those felt like one moment. Right? It's this district. It's this TIF. It's all figured out there. Andrew is trying to figure out with Russ what are the steps, and how does the infrastructure build out along with the housing build out phase in through all of that. Right now, your bill is check, you know, with some minor suggestions that Andrew may wanna touch on, just things that you have noted. [Adam Necrason]: Yeah. So yeah. I mean, just one thing that, you know, Russ and I and the team have been talking a little bit about is is the, you know, improvements definition. And, you know, while I think the the the definition of improvements per you know, implies that there there a lot can be eligible. I think it does call out some few specific examples. And I think one of the specific examples that we would like to put forward for for consideration is the idea of green infrastructure and particularly energy infrastructure. You know, hula across the street has gets tremendous advantage from geothermal, which reduces the demand on the the energy infrastructure for the city for the city of Burlington by generating its its own on-site energy. The same opportunity applies at a district scale for the c corp project, and we think it's a just a natural win win for this project to be able to finance some of those costs, which, you know, can be prohibitive at scale when you're doing buildings over phasing. But, clearly, as we all know, by reducing the demand on limited capacity in public utilities has a has a really clear benefit. And, you know, it you you know, if you look through the definition, you you you know, could it apply? Yes. Without a change, but we think maybe to have some language that clarifies that that's the type of forward thinking site infrastructure investments that we wanna see, in this work, I think, would go a long way, not not only to advancing housing, but also advancing the climate goals of the state. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: You talked to VIDA at all. They have a loan program for green energy that could be part of that. And I know they can't loan for housing projects, but they can certainly loan for green energy projects. So just thinking about where we can be creative. Mhmm. [Speaker 3 ]: I I [Adam Necrason]: don't we have not had conversations with them yet, but that's a great suggestion. So we're happy to follow-up with them. [Speaker 6 ]: Hi. I'm curious to know well, actually, two things. One is that just from looking at your portfolio development projects, this would be on the larger size side of your development projects. Do you have any hesitation about being able to get it over the line if it comes in at the fourteen hundred units? [Adam Necrason]: No. No. Not at all. [Speaker 6 ]: And, you know, [Adam Necrason]: we we are developing some very large scale projects. So for example, you know, we are developing a a project in in Brooklyn right now that will be nearly a thousand units of of development over six buildings and will include a one and a half acre park at a public school. And so, no, we don't we we like the opportunity to have large, multiphase projects that allow us to really think big. And as you've as as you can probably tell from Russ, Russ likes to think big as well. So, no, we're we're up for the challenge and and certainly capable of pulling it off. [Speaker 6 ]: Yeah. Something that I've been kind of concerned about and thinking about some of these funding models are is just the the wave of uncertainty that we're kind of faced with, and understanding that these multiphase projects, you know, they they take a long time. [Andrew Foley]: Yeah. [Speaker 6 ]: Is there any concern about the sort of current economic landscape that gives you pause or things that we should be thinking about? [Adam Necrason]: Oh, boy. That's a that's a good question. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: I you know, we're we're all, [Adam Necrason]: you know, watching things play out day by day. You know, there are a lot of uncertainties at every level in in our work, you know, with the tariff impacts, you know, the pullback at the federal level of some of the resources that we were counting on to utilize for green affordable mixed income housing. You know, we're we've historically been one of the larger, recipients of, EPA funding under the Inflation Reduction Act, which has been really ground to a halt. So, yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of bad news in the last, you know, six months about this work. But, you know, what we found is that and it does take it does take a while for these projects to come together. But we find that if we roll up our sleeves, we could just we can figure it out. But it is going back to it it does need to be a public private partnership where we're all working together to find ways to move housing forward because the the crisis is only deepening. So [Tim Combs]: Yeah. And and thanks, Andrew. I would just add to that quickly that, you know, the phase development here, it works relatively well mostly because we have some existing infrastructure along Lakeside Avenue. So, you know, the way that we're talking about phasing this across the site is, you know, we're gonna we're gonna place the first buildings where we have already sort of the most infrastructure. You know, that being said, we still have to deal with and I'm glad Adam brought it up, and I'm sorry I didn't mention it right at the top. But, you know, the CSO issue at Lakeside and Pine is a is a is a big known Achilles heel, you know, in Burlington for the wastewater treatment plant. And, you know, one of the things that I'm particularly excited about that Adam mentioned is the idea of this project really catalyzing some of the work that's gonna help clean up Lake Champlain. I've lived in Burlington for twenty five years. I spent a lot of time on the lake. You know, I started some retail businesses that really depend on getting people out on the lake. We're a big, proponent of trying to increase recreational activities, you know, from human powered and wind powered kind of vessels on Lake Champlain. The Burlington Surf Club sits on the site at Hula. We have a lot of kids learning to windsurf there all summer through camps that we that we put on. There's a number of people that come down there and use the waters there. We're also a stone's throw from the treatment plant at that site. So we're we know intimately well, you know, how challenging and problematic that CSO can be because on the four or five wet weather events that occur in the summertime, you know, there are as we all know, there there are there are issues that are created and and and and just overwhelming capacity at the plant and which essentially results in a lot of pollution in Lake Champlain. So anyway, as Adam pointed out, I'm I'm very familiar with those challenges. And one of the things I'm excited about in, really, in regards to this project is that I really think it's gonna catalyze a lot of the activity that's gonna help us to solve some of the, combined sewer and wastewater outlets coming into this into this area. So, anyway, going back to the phasing, you know, we're gonna phase this project in a way we're gonna use the existing infrastructure that's available to us by building on the Lakeside Avenue side of the site. That allows us also to kind of really lean on the the balance of the site for for parking, for staging, for things like that. So there'll be so the existing use of the site will still relatively remain in place as we phase this project out. I'm optimistic that we're gonna, you know, figure out creative ways of financing this project. I think you're you're right to ask that question. I think there I mean, we are living, you know, a lot of uncertainty right now. Right? We're all like like Andrew said, we're going day by day here, but, you know, we we feel an obligation and responsibility to really help try to, you know, be creative and be entrepreneurial about how we're gonna get ourselves out of this housing crisis and really solve the problem for some of our employers that are really trying to help build the future of the state, the with you in the jobs and the industries that we were really excited about. So, you know, we'll put up a building. We'll put up another building. We're gonna keep progressing as we can. But I understand, you know, the concern about leaving this thing unfinished. I I don't necessarily see that playing out mostly because the unfinished area is still parking. And at the end of the day, as much as I don't like parking cars, you know, we'll get into the whole, like, car light sort of mission and sort of thought process we have around this project. The reality is, you know, we're gonna be able to park cars on the balance of this parking on this site for a long time to come. And then while we creatively work our way through the financing, it allows us to continue to build housing. [Speaker 6 ]: Sorry. I have two more questions. [Claudia Holman]: What do you think? Yeah. No. [Speaker 6 ]: Yeah. Real quick. Really quick. And I'm also thank you so much for that answer. I'm also curious about you've you've been talking about a proportion of mixed income housing. Do you have a sense of what those proportions are gonna look like? Or typically in in your I guess this is a question for Andrew. Typically in your projects, what is that mix? [Adam Necrason]: Yeah. So we we look at low income housing being kind of at at or below eighty percent of area median income, and that's how it's defined. And then, what we would typically consider moderate income housing to be housing between eighty to a hundred and twenty percent AMI. So we are in discussions with funding partners around how to deliver that modern income bands at, you know, that eighty to probably a hundred percent AMI unit. So the the percentages aren't fixed yet, but we understand that one of the goals is to provide as much of a range of housing as possible, and we're gonna do what the resources allow us to do. [Speaker 6 ]: Okay. Do you have, like, just sort of examples from your other projects that you've done? [David 'Dave' Bosch]: Sure. [Adam Necrason]: So we have a project here in New York City that is about to start construction where, you know, up to forty percent of the units were at that moderate income band. Now that came with a lot of city subsidy and state subsidy that that that New York City was in New York State, we're able to provide to kinda get that the the numbers to pencil out. [Claudia Holman]: We [Adam Necrason]: have projects. I think one of the projects on the slides that we shared has a twenty percent workforce housing band within it. And and happy to provide other examples of our work if if, you're interested in hearing more about the [Speaker 3 ]: Yeah. [Adam Necrason]: Income workforce housing component. [Speaker 6 ]: Absolutely. I would I would definitely love to see more breakdowns of that. And then just the last question is, do you have a sense of vacancy rates in any of your properties? [Adam Necrason]: Oh, well, I mean, in New York, our vacancy rates are, you know, less than two percent because of of the housing crisis. So, particularly in our affordable affordable buildings, vacancy is is very low because the demand is is so so high. So, you know, we we we own over a hundred properties, I think, roughly, nationwide. So but vacancy has been historically low because of just the just the demand for housing, particularly rental housing. So [Andrew Foley]: We're almost out of time, guys. Just to thread it understood. Just to thread it to this committee's work, you know, with the partnership with Champlain Housing Trust, which is under development, Vermont has one of the, you know, most true and successful models with the Housing Conservation Board. And so when you annually send your letter to the Appropriations Committee saying, you know, VHCB funding, on some levels that's a key part of all of this because Champlain Housing has to bring their some resources to the table for them to partner in on the deeply affordable component of it all. And so again, this is the public private partnership. It's in all, excuse me, all of our hands to kind of get the resources to the table on the affordability component. Their commitment's there, but it's a resource constrained space. And with the Act two fifty provision, you know, twenty percent needs to be in that zone. And, like, so when we talk representing about getting to fourteen hundred, it's like, well, you gotta get to times point two o on affordability. [Adam Necrason]: Yeah. And just to one specific point on the moderate income, one of the key sources to that will be the VHFAs rental revolving loan fund source, which does permit some funding. So I think understanding the the sizing and the capacity of that source to to to fund portions of the project will help us determine how much of that workforce housing, moderate income we could provide. [Jonathan Cooper]: Thanks very much. I I'm sort of feeling like this is a good opportunity to to highlight the the anxieties we're all feeling about whether or not even existing models of federal assistance in programs are reliable anymore. And I think even going back to October, the Canadian Economic Development Office of Burlington, discussing discussing this project, the thought was, well, what are some other things we could utilize if there's not this program or a tip involved? And the EPA's community change grants was cited. And I think that we're seeing that that in some instances, these previously, we would assume, reliable tranches of federal funding are are not that anymore. With with that in mind, what I'd like to talk about is has to do with with stability or certainty as much as we can. With the bill as you've seen it in one twenty seven, should it pass? What sort of how would that influence conversations that you would be having with project partners, with other organizations that are a part of this development, in giving while while there's nothing guaranteed in real estate development, how would this impact your sense of viability for this particular project? [Adam Necrason]: Yeah. Really appreciate that question. And the it would have a tremendous positive impact on being able to demonstrate that the the the infrastructure improvements have a funding funding source. You know, challenges will remain to finding the rest of the the funding of you know, needed to for for other components of the building that this funding will not be eligible for, but, it you know, that will send a very clear signal that, Vermont is, backing this project and other projects like it and getting creative and finding solutions to to solve this problem. So [Andrew Foley]: Great question to to wrap on, mister chair, because back to the bill, you hold the keystone, and that's an hour of articulating. It's really, on some levels, balls in your hands in that regard. And, so we're here to help. We recognize there's a lot of advocates on this, and we defer to their leadership on the details of language and, but happy to and appreciate this opportunity. So thank you very much. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Thank you for coming in. We appreciate it. Sounds like an exciting project. I think, as mentioned, you know, there's always been this connotation of Burlington and New Vermont, but I think we all need to realize that Burlington is the economic engine for the state and anything we can do to keep that engine running strong, we need to do. So we will do our due diligence on on how we look at this new proposal, and and hopefully, we can push forward with it. [Andrew Foley]: Very much. Thank you. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: Thank you. [Speaker 3 ]: Appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you. [Chair Michael Marcotte]: And Eighty will take five minutes. Really five. I'm not Five hundred at eleven. That's important that we hear from

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