SmartTranscript of House Appropriations - 2025-04-03 - 10:05AM

[Member David Yacovone]: Good morning. [Chair Robin Scheu]: This is the House Appropriations Committee. It is Wednesday no. It's not Wednesday. It's Thursday, April third twenty twenty five. It's just after ten AM, and we're delighted to have Erica McKellar here, our representative from the National Council of State Legislatures and CSL. And so, Erica, welcome. [Witness Erica McKellar]: Introduce yourself, and then maybe I'll have you been here this summer to our committee? No. Not yet. Okay. [Chair Robin Scheu]: So we'll introduce ourselves. So we haven't done that for a while. So please. [Witness Erica McKellar]: Oh, madam chair, members of the committee, thank you so much for having me here today. I am Erica McKellar. I am with the National Conference of State Legislatures. I'm part of our fiscal affairs program at NCSL. I work on issues around state fiscal conditions and state budget process issues. And I also have the honor of being NCSL's liaison to the Vermont legislature, which means I get to travel here once a year and meet with all of you to learn how NCSL can maybe be better serving you and support your work. And as well as kind of just being a point person for you for any questions that you might have or anything that you might need from NCSL. You can always feel free to reach out to me. And I'll pause there to let you all introduce yourselves before telling you a little bit more about us. [Member David Yacovone]: So Great. Thanks. Hey. Good morning. I'm Dave I represent the Lamoille Washington District. Greetings. Good morning, and welcome to John Preceptor from Berkeley. I represent the Essex Caledonia District. Hi. Mike Nigro represent Bennington and Bell. Tom Stevens from Waterbury representing, the Washington Chittenden District. Morning. Erica Chittenden Harrison. I represent Chittenden, Bennington, and Cook Steel. [Chair Robin Scheu]: And I'm Robin Shai, and I represent Middlebury And I represent Burlington. [Member David Yacovone]: Frederick Spiro representing Andre Helen Sharikoff. Wayne O'Brien representing. Good morning. I'm Michael with Eastman. I'm from down in Southeast Vermont in the Fortis Street. [Chair Robin Scheu]: K? And then missing today, is Lynn Dickinson who's from Saint Albans Town. He gets attacked. So, anyway, we're glad you're here. [Member David Yacovone]: Thank you. [Witness Erica McKellar]: I'm very happy to be here. Well, as you you might know, NCSL is a bipartisan organization that's really dedicated to strengthening the legislative institution, and we do that through a a variety of ways. But we really want you to think of us as an extension of your legislative staff. We are really here to serve you in any way that you need to to support the important work that you all do here in State legislatures. As part of sort of thinking of us as an extension of your staff, one of the, the main tasks that we do is we're always happy to provide research. If there's any information that you need, any topics that you're interested in learning more about, if we don't have something on hand, we're more than happy to dig into that and and be a research resource for you. We also do a number of meetings and events throughout the year, both virtual and in person. And I'm excited that our annual meeting this year, our big legislative summit will be in Boston, August fourth through the sixth. I have some some fun save the date cards here that you can pin [Member David Yacovone]: to your [Witness Erica McKellar]: refrigerators. But I'm excited that it's kind of close to Vermont, and I hope that some of you will be able to attend. And when you do, you know, you'll have my cell phone number. Please feel free to reach out to me, and I'm happy to help you kind of navigate, the legislative summit. We also offer a number of trainings and professional development opportunities for legislators and legislative staff. We have a whole dedicated trainings team, so if you're interested in learning some more about those opportunities or having someone travel here to meet the committee, do any sort of, trainings around that, we'd be happy to do that as well. Our main office is located in Denver, but we also have a DC office that works a lot on our state federal relations, work. And, I'm really kind of here today to just sort of check-in with you all, learn about your experiences with MCSL, if there are other ways that we can be supportive of your work and answer any questions that you might have or take any research questions back with me to get you some information later on. [Speaker 3 ]: Yeah. I I'm gonna start right in with an informational question out on a CSO, but, we just had a conversation with our one of our the agency of administration here, and so much of the chaos DC is unprecedented. And so, I'll throw an example, and I'm just gonna ask you what is is NCSL working with the states to try to figure out? So for instance, somebody brought up the fact that our bond ratings, if everything goes to plan from DC to the states, our bond ratings might be severely affected. I have to imagine that everybody's bond ratings are gonna be severely affected or could be. Is that CSL kind of war gaming? I mean, there's so many dominoes that were that states have to deal with. Just curious where is NCSL in terms of getting over the peers that we all have and trying to put together some kind of game plan for the states to try to help us game plan? [Witness Erica McKellar]: I think right now, we are doing a lot of tracking of executive orders and what the impact might be on states. We're talking a lot with members about what some of the potential cuts and some of the cuts that we've seen, what the impact of those might be. We've issued a few letters to Congress in conjunction with some of our partner organizations, like the Council of State Governments and, the National League of Cities. And I know that our CEO is in close contact with them because, in times like this, we tend to work together a lot to really strengthen sort of our message to, you know, our congressional leaders and the administration. So right now, I think we are working hard to get a handle on everything that's coming down and the full impact that it might have on states and really sort of make sure that Congress and the administration are aware of the effect that some of these cuts might have to state budgets and the consequences. [Speaker 3 ]: Yeah. It's a fine start. Thank you. [Chair Robin Scheu]: I was on you had a couple of Medicaid seminars, and I made made the first one, and then we were doing our budget for the second one, so I didn't make it. But I actually haven't gotten the slides yet or the the presentation. That would be great as they said that they were gonna send those out. I found it really helpful. We heard in the first one I was on, we heard from, the Medicaid director in the state of Utah and the states of New Jersey, and they were already the ways they were thinking about things was really very interesting. And I don't know what happened the second week, but it's good. Yeah. [Member David Yacovone]: Can you do, what kind of research what what are your research capabilities? [Witness Erica McKellar]: We'll do sort of whatever it is you need, I suppose. We take them on sort of a case by case basis and sort of evaluate what the best strategy would be. You know, we can do a lot of bill research. If there's something that you're interested in introducing, we can see what similar bills might be around in other states. You know, we'll find available research. [Member David Yacovone]: You can't list other states. See [Witness Erica McKellar]: Yes. Yes. We can connect you with other states. We can, you know, gather information from other states. I work closely with the legislative fiscal directors in the states, so I often call them and ask them questions about their budgets or, you know, how much they spend on certain areas, things like that. [Member David Yacovone]: Surveys? Yes. Yes. Statistical statistical staff? [Witness Erica McKellar]: We do do some surveying of states. Yes. [Member David Yacovone]: Just as a quick example, representative Borwirki and I, just prior to your session, we were talking about introducing a electronic roll call floating. Reached out to NCSL, and they very quickly got back to us what every state was doing. And it turned out we were, like, one of the just a couple states that did it the old fashion for houses, not just senate. Senate chambers tend to be smaller, but and for houses, he was one of the couple states that actually do it. You know, names and nays individually, and then we all patiently sit there for fifteen minutes waiting for it to be done. Is that an old way or a traditional way? I guess it could be either. [Chair Robin Scheu]: Depends on how much you like it. [Member David Yacovone]: But they were very helpful if they're, you know, not not passing judgment at which is that. [Speaker 3 ]: A little bit in Latin here? [Member David Yacovone]: No. It's usually white. It turns out one of our one of our states that is that also does it the same way is Wyoming. They have a house about half the size of Vermont, even less than I think it's sixty something out of it's in the house. So that would be a little bit more fair. Yeah. It's it's information, not not passing judgment information. Right. Nonpartisan. Yeah. [Speaker 4 ]: Yeah. You know, in committee, we have talked at times about the difficulty we have in really understanding the budgets that come to us from the administration because they come up with budgets. We then work with it and and and, you know, what what we receive are ups and downs. So from the base budget of the prior year. But it it doesn't tell us anything at least on that same spreadsheet how much is is carried forward money that wasn't spent, which gives us a better idea of actually how much that department is spending. We have to look at a different sheet, and only because our chair asked for that two years ago, did this committee start looking at carry forward. I I guess I'm I've been wondering kind of what kind how maybe different states approach budgeting? What kind of information they request from the administrations, because we then it it in the time that we have, we tend to accept, basically, that the base budget is is, is something that we can support. Right? And I don't think anybody here wants to get into the minutiae of, you know, an agent agency's budget. But understanding how you know, where what buckets of money are being spent on, you know, and how that may have changed over time. It's really difficult to track some of those things. And I I just am curious since I don't have a ready idea of of how we what we might look at that would give us a better sense. So wondering if you have any ideas or might be willing to look into that for us. [Witness Erica McKellar]: Yeah. That's a great question. And I don't have a lot of experience looking at agency budget requests myself, but I would be happy to look into it. I know, you know, we can look into the different each state has what agencies are required to submit in their their budget request. So we can find some of those and start gathering some information on that. I also know every state allows agencies to carry forward funds, some sweep those in back into the general fund each year. So I don't know if you'd be interested in learning more about that as well. Mhmm. And have [Chair Robin Scheu]: carry forward, reversions, fund transfers. Yeah. [Witness Erica McKellar]: Yeah. I'd be happy to [Chair Robin Scheu]: Thinking our budget working group might have some that would be a topic for our budget working group. [Member David Yacovone]: That would [Witness Erica McKellar]: be an excellent topic. [Chair Robin Scheu]: Yeah. This afternoon. [Member David Yacovone]: Hey, Mike. Yeah. Thanks for coming. [Witness Erica McKellar]: Thanks for having me. [Member David Yacovone]: And and thanks to your your your website is is an amazing resource. There's a lot of information there. I've gotten a lot. The interns that work for me get a lot of information. So I commend whoever is keeping that up, and it's a it's a great resource for what's happening around the stage too. My question today is I I'm new to the reality of recognizing what I would call the a health care a health care system that I would describe as teetering. And we're in a rather precarious situation. And I don't know how it is for other states too, but I'm guessing we're not involved. Are there any studies in CSO is is doing big studies looking at the health care business? It should be, you know, one of the basics of of of life that we we wanna have a health care system when people pick up the phone. They wanna be able to have somebody on the other end who's gonna be helpful, who's who's gonna answer and, you know, might if anything keeps me up at night right now, it's it's where we're at right now. That and I don't think anybody's happy with the system, whether it's patients, providers, insurance companies. So it seems to be a pretty big issue, and I don't know if you have anything now or or working on it. That would be really helpful. Yeah. [Witness Erica McKellar]: Absolutely. We have a whole team of people dedicated to, you know, health and human services, and I will check-in with them to see what resources they have or what resources they're available or aware of that might be useful. Send those to you. That'd be helpful. I'll send I'll take these questions back with me and gather information and send them all to to Aaron. That would be [Chair Robin Scheu]: That would sounds great. And if you could distribute. I have another question. [Member David Yacovone]: Yeah. I'm also the president of the health piece here. It's good for us to kinda know what's going on. You know, the states and the strategies that they're thinking about for them. Make it better in their own state, which might be helpful for us. Another topic too is, you know, housing spending on here as well. You know, being a relatively rural state for the most part here except for, you know, growing to these problems. They're in those houses there. Really difficult to housing development is fairly difficult. I don't know if the regular focus on the side or just development will have to make area to to carry out what needed for additional office. [Witness Erica McKellar]: Sorry. Did you say willing to commit to rural areas? [Member David Yacovone]: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Whether it's, you know so I'm always all about capacity. I mean, they're not gonna work for free here, clearly. You know, expect them to you know, they have margin as well. It's been really difficult, especially with infrastructure. It's a cost that are there. So if you have anything in relation to that type of environment here, kind of rural areas of other states, it'd be helpful. Just things they're thinking about beyond kind of traditional, you know, built from the ground up kinds of structures. It just takes a long time to get that stuff together, and our building season is really short. [Speaker 5 ]: Dave, I'm I've been interested in trying to explore different ways to do bud state budgets. Vermont, I think it was in two thousand and fourteen, passed, Act one eighty six and it dealt with it established ten state outcomes in in law. An example, elders and people with disabilities will live in settings they prefer. Could you imagine budgeting? How much money does Vermont spend on that outcome? Children enter school ready to learn. How much money does Vermont spend on that outcome? And what are the indicators? How are we doing? That to me would would change the face of, here comes natural resources and here's what we here are our ups and here's our downs, but rather, what are we achieving? Do you know if any other states budget by outcomes? [Witness Erica McKellar]: I am yes and no. I I am aware of states that use sort of an outcomes based performance based budgeting system, but it's not exactly what you are describing. It's more like, instead of having a line item of what the agency can spend, you designate a goal, and then you give the agency sort of a lump sum to achieve that goal Mhmm. Sort of in its kind of simplest form. I'm not aware of any states that sort of have these high level goals and then measure based on that, but I can look into it. Thanks. Yeah. That's great. [Chair Robin Scheu]: The projects that you know NCSL is working on that [Witness Erica McKellar]: I think right now, the the federal piece is really getting a handle on that and tracking that. I think we'll be doing a lot more webinars on that, a lot more opportunities for you all to meet and share ideas and things like that. So I think that's a big focus for us right now. [Chair Robin Scheu]: So I really appreciate you coming in. I know Jim sort of got you last minute at the end of the day yesterday, but we're glad that we could connect and that everybody gets a chance to meet you. You've actually been on the liaison for a while now. Yes. I recall. Yeah. Oh, so I think since seven. [Witness Erica McKellar]: Twenty fourteen. Really? You got basketballers and my [Chair Robin Scheu]: dad. Okay. [Witness Erica McKellar]: Any other sport, I don't know anything about basketball. [Member David Yacovone]: Yeah. We understand the importance of having some funds along the way. So we have some diversions that help Yeah. Especially in this committee. [Chair Robin Scheu]: Where it could be tougher. [Member David Yacovone]: All good. But we very much appreciate you coming, checking in with us. It's interesting to and perhaps exciting to see that the NCSL annual conference is in Boston, which might make it doable, although we may not have any money left in our budget to make the registration fee. But I've had the opportunity to go to one NCSL conference, and it's a a lot of information packed into a couple days with workshops on every and your presentations by your peers in other states, which is how we all learn. So [Chair Robin Scheu]: it's great. Alright. Thank you very much. [Witness Erica McKellar]: Thank you. Thank you all for your support of NCSL. We really appreciate it and really appreciate the work that you all do. [Chair Robin Scheu]: Great. Thanks. Enjoy the rest of your visit to Vermont. [Witness Erica McKellar]: Would anybody like business card or glasses wipe or any No glasses. I'm [Member David Yacovone]: No. Future. [Chair Robin Scheu]: Well well, that's Sorry. So maybe after the floor, we'll be running the testimony from this morning of house, ways, and means and Tammy Colgate education funding. It will be in here if you want to come in. This is not mandatory, but if you wanna see it, I think it'll be helpful for what we're gonna need to know, and you can bring your platform. And then at three o'clock, Beth St. James will begin to talk about [Member David Yacovone]: the end policy briefs. So Yeah. And before we go, can [Speaker 3 ]: I and I apologize for being [Member David Yacovone]: late? I have a [Chair Robin Scheu]: That's okay. [Speaker 4 ]: Sure. Thank you. [Speaker 3 ]: So, and I'll go back and I'll watch the first the half hour that I missed to share. But just in general, what if you hadn't boiled it down, what is the legislative what are we doing for all the federal cuts? Like, is it what is the legislature doing for the like, tracking the federal cuts? And I enjoy it, Jay. It's always keeping an ongoing list. But is there a strategy that is starting to form for all three referred to at least our branch, the executive branch? [Chair Robin Scheu]: So, thanks to, our JFO staff, they we are gonna I'm gonna be sending out a letter under my name written by written by JFO to to Sarah Clark as the secretary of the administration that will go out to all of the committees I mean, not not not committees, the agencies and the departments about and so once we have that, you'll all get a copy of that that says we want you to take a look at all your federal funds. You know, what how are you thinking about them at this moment in time? Can you prioritize high, medium, low risk? Some other questions, and then Emily put together a spreadsheet that follows kind of how they do things so that we would will be information gathering. We'll be having, agencies and departments coming into our, committee over the next few weeks to talk about, well, how they're thinking about that. Because if we have to do a whole new budget, it would be you know, which we may You know? We wanna have as much information ahead of time so that we understand and they understand. And we're gonna have to be reactive because we don't know what's happening, and we don't know when it's gonna happen, and we don't know when they say something if it's gonna stick. So, you know, there's just so much else. So once we have that, finished, and we went over it at the break with, Sarah Clark, so she's well aware of what's happening. And so we're trying to collaborate there. And we'll probably have Adam in Nextiva also to to talk about it. So we have a plan for how we're gonna gather the information and think about it, and I'm really grateful to JFO for helping get this orchestrated in the launch PA. [Speaker 4 ]: I mean, I've been part of a process like this before. I'm just wondering what happens, actually. So we're working on the budget, and then all of a sudden, there are there's news of major cuts, and they stop work on that and send the budget back over to us, or do they [Member David Yacovone]: Do they or do they I mean [Chair Robin Scheu]: Well, we may do an entirely new budget because it's just too I mean, I think it depends on what it is and what we have to do. Yeah. You know, money bills start in the house, so it may be I mean, I know from talking to the folks that none of us that have been here the longest were here when COVID for today was here. When COVID hit and you were ninety eight percent of the way through the budget, and then you had to throw it out and start again. And you did a six month budget or a three month budget. Yeah. Well yeah. So you did three or four that year. And and Tom Kavett, I think, did maybe did some updates, or he might we might ask him to do updates in this case. You know, in the in in the case of COVID, it was it was gazillions of dollars coming in. In the recession of two thousand eight, nine, ten, we actually got error money from the federal government. Well, that's not gonna happen. We're gonna be on our own. So it's all uncharted territory. We have we have what we know we've done. I would expect so I don't okay. Yeah. So we're just trying to plan as much as we can and and be ready. And then when things happen, which they will, we'll try to be as nimble as we can. [Member David Yacovone]: Get a hard hat so because no one will like us. [Chair Robin Scheu]: At least this won't be your fault. [Speaker 3 ]: There there will be people they'll like a lot less. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. [Chair Robin Scheu]: I think I think [Speaker 3 ]: the issue is too is that it's it's it's never ending. It feels like it's always just in the lips. So even if [Member David Yacovone]: Right. [Speaker 3 ]: A, you know, it's gonna be like the millipedes shoes dropping [Member David Yacovone]: because every time we pick up the first [Chair Robin Scheu]: I don't think they're the millipedes. Yes. I just yes. [Member David Yacovone]: Why do you pay your mark? Yeah. But [Chair Robin Scheu]: You know, if you've only got one joke to tell, you had the [Speaker 3 ]: I I said it to your back. [Chair Robin Scheu]: So, if we're all set, let's go offline, but stay

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SmartTranscript of House Appropriations - 2025-04-03 - 10:05AM

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