SmartTranscript of House Agriculture – 2025-02-26 – 9:30AM

[Kate Wachman]: Well, the academy actually grew up, but we're so close to, yes, so so but Right. Live there now. Okay. [Chair David Durfee]: Okay. If you wanna introduce yourself for the record. [Kate Wachman]: Absolutely. Well, good good morning to you all. Thank you so much for having us today. My name is Kate Wachman. I'm the director of Serve Learn Earn. I'm joined here with Brecknoff, the executive director of the Vermont Youth Conservation Corps, who will speak after me. Really grateful for your time today, for your past support of serve, learn, earn in this committee, and your consideration of our current funding request. Since twenty twenty, serve, learn, earn has been on a mission to create high quality paid service and training opportunities across the state. So coming right out of COVID, we saw that Vermonters, especially our young adult Vermonters, were often disconnected from school and quality employment. We also saw that great programs across the state were doing work to help those folks get trained and connect with employers, but were often siloed and doing it in small communities at small scale. And so our partners working together are taking a network approach to serving Vermonters in the communities they live in. Approaching workforce development as a system rather than a single program or organization has allowed serve learn earn to provide deeper opportunities for training, longer engagement with participants, new programs in our rural communities, and to build bridges between our educational institutions and our employment partners. So as we see the needs of Vermonters and Vermont employers changing, we have been able to adapt to evolve our programming, and much of that is due to the foundation of support this legislative body has provided. So you can see here our four partners. We work together, through, Forest Parks and Recreation who administers our state grant. We also work with AmeriCorps programs in the state, including CERV Vermont, which is our state service commission. And we have a new partnership, which I'll speak to later with Northwood Stewardship Center. Serval and Earn provides a continuum of programming for Vermonters ages fourteen years and older. With career exploration, early professional training, and sector specific workforce development, Servlearnearn serves Vermonters in every stage of their career. What's unifies all of our programs within Servlearnearn are three things, and our name denotes those three things. Right? We have high quality career training where folks learn skills that enable them to connect with with, good wages and jobs. It's paid. All of our programs are paid, so there's no financial hurdle that folks need to to cross to be able to get that training. And three, we utilize service as a vehicle for that training to learn skills, but also to give back to folks' communities. We know the power of service is more than just the outcome of the project, but it is that that development of a personal belief of capacity, of feeling the need that you can be useful. That's a really powerful motivating, tool for our participants. Often our participants come from marginalized communities, and through our our cohort based training, we're able to build technical skills, develop leadership, build community, and connect with high quality employment. We work across many sectors, including conservation, sustainable agriculture, the trades, and education. And you can see them all laid out here, twelve of them. I just wanna spend a few minutes highlighting a couple that really speak to the jurisdiction of this this committee and your work, that you, do each year. I'll highlight one in each of our buckets. So the first one I wanna highlight is under career exploration. So these are for high school age students. Right? So they're not looking to land a job at the end of this. They're really looking to learn about what careers are available to them. This is through our partner at Audubon Vermont. It's called the Junior Conservation Tech Program. And this is students get to work alongside the professionals at Audubon in terms foresters, biologists. They work with partners and and understand land land management. They do conservation based service projects. On the Audubon campus, Audubon has a network of public free trails that that many folks in Huntington use, and they work to preserve those trails. They've actually done a lot of flood recovery work in the last year because much of that wind was impacted by the floods. This program occurs on the weekends, it occurs on school vacation, and in the summer. And what's really cool is that we've been able to utilize the flexible pathways legislation and provide students high school credit for this out of school experience. And we work with their schools to do that. [Chair David Durfee]: Representative Nelson, [Representative Richard Nelson]: thank you. Would that be, like, through the career technical centers? Because some of this work seems to mirror Yeah. Like, the natural resources for that North Country. [Kate Wachman]: Yeah. Absolutely. So so we consider them partners, but we are separate from from network. But some of these students attend those schools and see this as additional training. But one thing, we have spent a lot of time talking with, CTE, teachers. And one of the things that is really difficult for them is to get the the work based experience that they really want for their students due to insurance issues. Right? Employers don't wanna insure seventeen year olds on their worksite. Some of our programs, based on how they're structured, they also they enable actually a much wider opportunity to do the work. For instance, BYCC has a forestry program where they might be able to use chainsaws where they wouldn't, necessarily in the with an employer. And so we see that we're a partner in expanding and extending the learning that they're doing at CTE centers. We also utilize their facilities, for our trainings and our partners at Vermont Works for Women works directly with CTE centers to get more girls in nontraditional occupations in those programs. Perfect. [Representative John O'Brien]: Thank you. Just as far as high school age students go, like people who have dropped out of high school, would they still be eligible or homeschool? [Kate Wachman]: Definitely homeschool. Some because we're not in the school, we really will take anyone who wants to come. We don't care. We actually I mean, we do care about their educational outcome, but but we it's not like me. That's a requirement. Mhmm. We actually have a really neat program at resource called YouthBuild, which trains, folks who are struggling in a traditional high school setting. They come to YouthBuild, and they spend half the day doing individualized academic preparation, the other half learning construction skills. There's a program in Burlington and in Barrie run through resource. And that's an that's an opportunity for kids who maybe are disconnected, who want to get their high school diploma, or who are not yet disconnected but are really, really struggling. Mhmm. And those students for the last two years have done so much flood recovery work in the Barrie area specifically. Yeah. They had to repair their own training facility first. Resources hit in twenty twenty three. And it's since then become just, like, a muck out machine and learned how to rebuild and learned how to rebuild better also too. [Chair David Durfee]: Representative Nelson. [Representative John O'Brien]: It is thank you. [Representative Richard Nelson]: It is amazing how a kid, a a young adult that doesn't have the aptitude for math, when you get them in carpentry or other hands on skills. Next thing, they're doing geometry. Yes. And and and then you say, oh, there you just did geometry because they're vested in it. [Chair David Durfee]: That's right. [Kate Wachman]: They see that. [Representative Richard Nelson]: And these are great programs for us this month. I've been on the school board fourteen years, so I I get it. [Chair David Durfee]: Representative Boston? [Representative Richard Nelson]: Yeah. I just have a quick question. So in terms of the serve versus the earn [Kate Wachman]: Yeah. [Representative Richard Nelson]: Like, do people get a stipend? Are they getting minimum wage? How, you know, how do you draw the line between voluntary service or compensation? [Kate Wachman]: Yeah. So it's different with each of our programs based on the structure of them. Yep. I actually another representative earlier in the session asked that same question, and I'm happy to send you a layout of all twelve of our programs and how they get paid. Yep. Some are AmeriCorps programs, and, you know, those are stipends and that's sort of already regulated. Some get paid for that the service portion of it where they're actually doing the work, but not necessarily the training that comes before it. Others are paid for every single hour that they're there. Yeah. So it's really different, but I'm I'm happy to send that list to you. Yep. [Chair David Durfee]: Thank you. Yep. Thank you [Kate Wachman]: for these questions. The second bucket of programming that we have, we call early professional experience. This these tend to be longer programs where the expectation for worker service is higher and their, participants are learning more direct sector, credentials and skills. So Rick is gonna talk about Vermont Youth Conservation Corps, but they have programs in conservation and forestry and sustainable agriculture where folks are really training to enter the workforce when they're ready, when they've completed their schooling, or when they're they're interested in that work. Many of these programs are AmeriCorps programs. And, for those of you not familiar with AmeriCorps, it's a federal program, and so we can talk about the the uncertainty of that continued funding, but also that there is a wonderful benefit to it because of education award. And that's an award awarded at the end of service that can be used for education, whether it's past student loans or future tuition. That really is an economic driver for Vermont for these students. The other experience, I wanted to mention is Northwood Stewardship Center, very similar in terms of having a conservation corps providing youth and young adults opportunities for for season engagement, a couple months almost to a full year, working in conservation, but also conservation science. A really cool project they do is they do seed collections of native plants and trees, and then they do reforestation projects across the state. What's Seagull American Rescue? Yes. Seagull Education Award is that name of that award at the end of the term that they get. Yep. And then last bucket is our adult, focused training where we really are looking to minimize the time folks are in training and getting them into full time employment at the end. So, a couple of programs I wanted to highlight are resources. They have a series called their one zero one intensives, very similar to a program at Vermont Works for Women called Trailblazers. These are training folks in the trades. So those critical workers that we need to build the housing that we have. So weatherization, HVAC construction, electrical plumbing. This is four weeks of training with inclusive of service projects where there's practicing those skills, two weeks of employment or or work like a work experience with a local employer often leading to a job. So they're getting the necessary entry level credentials to be able to walk onto a job site, be ready to work. What's wonderful about these programs for our employers is that we do a lot of the screening for them. And so when they know they're coming out of a resource or a Vermont Works for Women program, that they're ready to work, they're interested in the sector, They're they're going to be a good hire. We've really strongly partnered with a lot of our weatherization assistance programs across the state to to provide employees for them. [Representative John O'Brien]: And Yeah. Maybe, Brett, have you built relationships with I can see, like, this this sort of flow from, like, either the conservation camps and then here at Vermont State University, if somebody wants to take it further. [Kate Wachman]: Yeah. Absolutely. And so we we really like, the whole thing about serve learning is to take this networked approach. Right? So whenever there's an opportunity to partner, whether it's K-twelve institutions or higher ed institutions, we're really excited about that. Not in these programs, but in Vermont youth conservation programs this upcoming year, we're actually piloting, offering college credit for their courses as well, through the dual enrollment program. So really looking at this education legislation that has opened the doors to opportunities like ours to really integrate into those experiences. Yeah. But also, I should say with Vermont Tech specifically, many of these folks go into apprenticeship jobs that then they're taking the plumbing or the electrical apprenticeship through, the technical college. Yeah. Just, overview of some of our outcomes. We've served since our initial funding, we've served almost, fifteen hundred participants, right, over five fifty credentials of value. We've provided three point two five million dollars of segmented wages back to Vermonters, and enrolled over five hundred AmeriCorps members. So last year, you know, we had six fifteen participants. Seventy percent of those were twenty four years and younger. So the majority of our participants are not looking to get a job right after us, but are looking at building their careers using our programs as stepping stones. Of those people who are looking for jobs, a hundred and five were offered, ninety three accepted just coming out of our program. So, like, day one out of our program, that's who had jobs, many more within the first quarter. The first two quarters were were in place. You can see on the map, this is where we serve folks. So really all over the the state. Really quickly, just thinking about the growth over the last four years, sustained funding from the legislature has really allowed us for consistent growth. We're growth. We're serving more people. We're serving them at a deeper level. They're earning more credentials and value. It really means that that we're enabling them to enter the workforce in a position to get family sustaining wages. The other outcome that we have is that outcome of our service project. So we did over one hundred and eighty projects last year, in these, seven areas of work. So habitat assessment and improvement, community education, small build project, which is where some, boys and girls club needed a new bookshelf. We went in and we built that for them. Accessible housing, trail and outdoor recreation, projects and flood recovery. So just to run through a list of we, you know, we built twenty four homes. We built we rebuilt them after flooding. Three thousand children received education programs. Eight accessible housing projects completed fourteen miles of trails, and over five ninety one families received weekly vegetables, chicken, and eggs from the BYCC Healthcare Share program. Just a few of the employers that we work with who hire our graduates across the state as well. And then lastly, our budget request. So, like chair Jirphy said, we, the governor put five hundred thousand dollars in, the base budget in FPR. This past year, we received two million dollars of one time appropriation, so that's what we're working with now. So we are asking for that base budget funding to be increased to two point five million, within the FPR. This two point five million allows us to leverage an additional eight million dollars every year to run our programs, which costs about ten point five million dollars our partners in private philanthropy love to see that we are are funded through the state and and really want to get involved with us because they they know that we're we're a part of the state's strategy to help funders. [Representative Richard Nelson]: How much federal funding do you receive, and are you doge proof? [Kate Wachman]: Is anyone to put it? So that's a little bit of a hard question to answer because we get federal funding in a number of ways. So I can tell you right now that Vermont Works for Women has already seen a federal grant that they received last year get frozen and then unfrozen again because of Vermont's attorney general. So that was three hundred thousand dollars that is still very much in limbo. So that's a direct federal grant, but we also have project partners who are federally funded who may not be able to hire us to do this work, to do this service, to provide this training. So we have, you know, that fee for service funds that would be impacted. And then the the funding around AmeriCorps, which is, you know, across our three programs that get it, Audubon, BYCC, and Resource over a million dollars annually easily that we don't know about that funding, moving forward. [Representative Richard Nelson]: It's amazing how fast their freeze thaw cycle is Yes. Right now, isn't it? [Kate Wachman]: It's unnerving. It's very unnerving. It is. Yeah. [Chair David Durfee]: Is public funding more than state funding? Or [Kate Wachman]: Federal funding? [Chair David Durfee]: Sorry. So public funding there is the state plus the federal number. [Kate Wachman]: So the state is two million this year. The the eight point four is both private philanthropy as well as federal funding for our total of about four point ten ten point four million. [Chair David Durfee]: Okay. And then looking back to other years, just following that blue line across, that so that that that state funding amount has been [Kate Wachman]: Pretty. So we we started at one point eight five No. Point eight, two point three, two this year. [Chair David Durfee]: And that would have included five hundred thousand in base funding each year [Representative Richard Nelson]: plus No. [Chair David Durfee]: I think [Kate Wachman]: new this year is the five hundred. [Chair David Durfee]: So I see. [Representative Richard Nelson]: So it [Chair David Durfee]: was what time funding? Since several. Several years. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. [Representative John O'Brien]: Representative Ryan. I just wondered. It must have been great to have this time three million one time last year. I mean, it enabled you to do all these things. So I was thinking, like, in a in the it's a wonderful life test. What goes away if you don't have that two billion dollars? [Representative Richard Nelson]: Yeah. Thanks for asking that question. [Kate Wachman]: So I I think that what we would see so first of all, these programs existed before public funding. Many of them did. We've seen tremendous growth, and we've seen the profile of the people we can serve change to those who have more challenges to employ. So if we lose funding, we won't be able to offer these programs for free. We won't be able to pay folks. We will have to reduce the size of these programs. And those Vermonters who need it most won't be able to access it. We won't be able to bring it to all the different rural communities. So I so, you know, some might disappear, but I think what would happen is is that who we could serve would very much change. [Representative Richard Nelson]: Yeah. I'll pass it off to Brett. [Brecknoff]: Okay. I'll be quick. Hey, Durfee. Thank you for the invitation. It's great to be back in this August group. My name is Brecknoff. I'm an executive director at Vermont Youth Conservation Corps. Thank you, Kate, for that great overview. I think what I'll try to do is drill down a little bit and focus more specifically on Vermont News Conservation Corps. There's obviously lots of overlap between, what I'll share and what Kate said, but mine's a little more, focused on on VYCC, if you will. First, VYCC, you know, at a thirty thousand foot level, we offer paid service experiences to young adults. Generally, they range in age from fifteen to twenty six. This year, we'll have approximately a hundred and eighty paid service members who come through the core. And the and the outcomes you know, VYCC is many things at once. It's a powerful learning and leadership training experience. It is also when you invest in BYCC, you're investing in young people, but you're also investing in infrastructure and conservation. So to to use an Audubon phrase, you're catching two birds with one berry there. And it's workforce development training. And you asked a question about partnership with higher education. We you know, we're really committed to providing as much value to our participants as possible. We think about this as a service compact. So if someone's really really willing to step up and deliver and be there for the state, then the state needs to be there for them. Then the organizations need to be there for them. So how do we do this? We can do this through, wages and stipends, but we can also do this through certifications, credentials, academic credit. For the last several years, we've partnered with CCV where all of our crew leaders get twelve credits for for being a leader at VYCC. And what's new this year is leveraging that dual enrollment flexible pathways legislation so that our high school students are also able to gain, higher education credit through their time at BYCC. So really excited about that. We have two main programs. We have a food and farm program, and we have a conservation program. I'll start with the conservation program. There's several different initiatives within that. Forestry, water quality, carpentry, and trails. We're we're best known for our trail work. That's for forty years now has been our bread and butter. But I wanna focus because I'm talking to the House Committee on Agriculture, Food, Resiliency, and Forestry Forestry Initiative here. And I'll I'll start by kind of a quick story of several years ago, five years ago or so. We asked why Vermont and BYCC didn't have forestry crews, sawyer crews, because there are about one hundred and fifty corps across the country, and many of the western corps have really robust sawyer training programs. They do a lot of forest fire prevention, what have you. And so we reached out to potential potential partners, and they said, well, there's really not a pipeline of projects, that have been developed. And we said, well, why aren't there a pipeline of projects? Well, because there aren't enough people to field, you know, to be on crews. Well, why aren't there enough people to be on crews? Well, because there's not enough projects. So you get the self defeating circular logic. And we said, well, you know, let's let's try to craft something here. And so we partnered with then, Vermont Tech, now part of Vermont State Colleges, to launch a forestry initiative. And in that first year, four years ago, we had six crew weeks. This year, we expect to have thirty six crew weeks. So it's really been a fun trajectory to see the way in which, this this initiative has grown. You know, projects, let's just paint a picture of what those projects looks like. Our niche is small, nimble, light footprint, go to places where loggers, foresters don't go. We don't wanna be competing with them. And for many, many projects that are particular conservation or habitat oriented, it's not worth the logger's time. So we can go in there, and we can do timber stand improvement. So there'll be a grove of service berry cherry tree service berry and apple and cherry trees, and we'll take out the smaller trees around them in a way that's good for, birds, bees, ears, what have you. Release. Yeah. Do a do a timber stand release there. We do a fair amount of invasive work, both manual and spray. We have two folks on our team who are certified to do the spray. And then what we piloted last year and will build upon this year is hazard tree removal, doing that in partnership with Forest Parks and Rec in the state parks. You can't have dead trees falling on lean twos, on campfires, what have you. So our crews can go in there and they can use a grip voice and fell them in the right direction. And so there's a technical training as well as just benefiting state infrastructure there. Question? [Representative Richard Nelson]: Have you thought about helping your older members get, like, their certification in in pesticide management licensing. Yes. There there is a huge need in the agriculture industry for people with that license. [Brecknoff]: Yes. And so we'll be doing more of that this year. We also provide game of logging training, which is a a safety course that the US forest has a slightly different version, but it's equivalent of there's three different levels, and all of our chainsaw crews get those three levels so they can, have that technical experience. And the other training that we're excited to introduce is heavy machinery training. And so we've just landed a three year, grant from the Northern Border Regional Commission that'll expand our forestry work up in the Nordic Kingdom, and and it'll pay for some of that in advanced training. Some of that will be will be the young You've [Representative Richard Nelson]: reached out to, like, professional loggers association or the the Vermont forest? [Chair David Durfee]: Yes, ma'am. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So [Brecknoff]: yes. So there's a whole range of partners that we have. Some are federal, National Park Service, US Forest Service. Some are organizations like Merck Family Forest or Land Trusts. We partner with the state, but we also partner with different regional groups. So women owning woodlands, Old Hollow to Canada, county foresters. I don't know the specific, logging group that you mentioned, but I suspect Bill Anderson, who leads this initiative, has been in in contact with them. Yeah. So Okay. Looking at the time, and I I know we need to hustle here. [Representative John O'Brien]: Brian. Just a quick one. Yeah. Could you talk about recruitment? Like, do these programs sell out, essentially? I mean, do you have to turn people away or or, you know, setting them up or do some not fill up and some are super popular? [Brecknoff]: Our crews have been filled the last two years. Our recruitment now is two months ahead of where it's been in years past. The hardest positions for us to fill are our leader positions because you need both the technical training as well as the ability to make sure peep the arc of the group development is coming along well, like people don't get foot fungus. Like, there's there's lots of news out there, but we expect to be oversubscribed, if you will. Last year at VYCC, our applications to physicians ratio was about three to one, two and a half to one. And now everyone who applies doesn't want doesn't you know, is gonna pursue something else. So I I don't wanna mislead with the headline there, but our crews are full. And we're seeing that across the serve learning arm coalition that that there's more interest than we have demand. So just just quickly on forestry, the another outcome here in addition to the training and the conservation impact that we have is the job placement. So we're seeing people go to maple industry, Ronald McMaple, Purringtons. We're seeing people go to Redstart, which is another, place where they can get that training of of, invasive removal. We're seeing people go into state, ANR. We're seeing people go into the US Forest Service. And so this is, more and more, it's been fun to watch VUICC really respond to Vermont needs and focus our adult young adult programs on job placement, that's like development. And maybe ninety seconds or less, I also would be remiss if I didn't talk about the farm at VYCC. So Vermont, as we know, is this great laboratory for food systems, innovation. And just as we looked at the forestry initiative and said, what would that look like at VYCC? We also looked at farming and said, we have a really adaptable model, small teams working hard, outdoor projects that matter. There's an opportunity here and in this great laboratory of agricultural innovation that is Vermont, VYCC should be a leading core in creating an agricultural program. And on our campus in Richmond, we have farmland. So it felt like there's a real opportunity opportunity there. At a high level, what the farm at BYCC does is we enroll core members. They grow food. We partner with regional medical centers or hospital, twelve of them, mostly in Northern Vermont, who in turn have identified families or patients who struggle with food insecurity and diet related illness. And then very much like a CSA model, we have what we call our healthcare share, where our food is then delivered on a weekly basis to our medical center partners who, provide out those food shares for Vermonters who are struggling with food insecurity. Roughly eighty participants this year in the food and farm program, hundreds and hundreds of volunteers, seventy thousand pounds of food, four hundred and eighty plus recipients of those health care shares. Lots of times when nonprofits will talk about a food and farm program, and it's really just a cute garden. This is not that. This is a fully diversified vegetable poultry farm. It is a very real farm. It is a way to provide training for the next generation of farm leaders in the state. My my last thought I think my last thought here is it's been fun to think about the way and to see recent infrastructure investments. So we've put up four new hoop houses, a new prop house, a new storage shed. We talked earlier about our compost structure that we're building this summer. It'd be a way to sequester carbon. We're really what we want is to extend the production season and have that really be something that enhances our food security efforts, but also extend the growing and the training season and to do that in modern systems in a way so that when our graduates, if you will, leave the farm at BYCC and they go start their own farm, they go work for other farms, they work for the food bank, what have you, they're really well versed in these systems and the best practices. And so making that shift from a farm that was held together with duct tape and twine to really modern systems has been fun to, fun to be part of that journey. So what questions might you have? [Chair David Durfee]: Yeah. Thank you. No. That was a that was a great overview. I think it gives us, you know, clearer picture of of the work that you're doing and how it fits into the larger landscape. Right. Great. Well, thanks. [Brecknoff]: I make one last plug here. So, two two thoughts on on the funding request. We talked briefly about the uncertainty of federal funding, acknowledging that this is a self serving point. But the more that we have certainty and commitments from partners, funding partners, the better that is more that's a a bulwark against possible changes that are coming. So including and enhancing the amount increasing the amount that's in the base budget would be really helpful for this collaboration. I can't understate the way in which the philanthropic sector says, wow. You've got a partner in state government. State government is is, you know, goes through a serious vetting process. They believe in you. And then the other point that I would make here, which is related, is highlighting Kate's numbers that the slides numbers that are in Kate's slides and the ROI that the state has gotten on this investment feels really measurable. We've also hired a new data manager who's gonna enhance our ability to track data across all organizations so that next year when we come back to you, we can even share more of that story. [Chair David Durfee]: How does that leveraging work that [Representative John O'Brien]: you spoke about, you know, the the two million you turned into eight million [Kate Wachman]: Yeah. [Chair David Durfee]: With hardware? [Representative Richard Nelson]: Well, I I mean, it it works in a [Kate Wachman]: number of ways. One, it it works to save the of our program's credibility in the eyes of private funders so they won't even play play with us unless we're you know right at this level the second way is that it enables us to well we've made a really strong commitment of using public funds only for direct programmatic costs so when we say public taxpayer dollars will just go directly to that and so what we're able to do is then tell you know share with our private funders that this is how we're using the money and and can they help in other ways in the indirect costs and the overhead of our program and I think they really value that distinction. So so just being able to say that this this is how our our budgets break down has enabled us to get into conversations and rooms with funders who wouldn't necessarily have previously looked at us. I think the other thing too is that because we're talking about collective impact of CERB learner rather than every small program approaching the funder, it's a very efficient way for them to fund, I think, similar to the state. And and so they have been interested at looking at a scale across Vermont rather than just in one community. [Brecknoff]: Great. [Kate Wachman]: Thank you so much. [Chair David Durfee]: Thank you. Thank you both for coming in. Alright. Good. So let's shift gears briefly away from Okay. Budget. One of the bills that we're looking at this week, h one thirty four. And we've got John McCann. [Representative Richard Nelson]: Go ahead, John. Do you wanna come on up? [John McCann]: Yeah. Looks like I get a private room today. So [Chair David Durfee]: We're we are short a couple of committee members. There's a press conference going on downstairs that I think That where they Yeah. It won't necessarily last too long. But, anyway, the door might open and more people might come in, so just be aware of that. And h one thirty four is the bill just to refresh everyone's memory. It's one of the current use bills. It's the one that representative Kimball introduced as a couple of provisions. John, I'll turn it over to you to say whatever you wanna say about the belt. [John McCann]: Yeah. Welcome. Thank you for having me again this year. Two new faces. Welcome. So for the record, my name is John McCann, and I co own North Branch Vineyards, with Catherine McCann. In Mount Pillars slash Middlesex, we have both winery and a vineyard. Kate and I found the North Branch Vineyards in two thousand and seven. My testimony today is about the current use issue with our vineyard, not directly related to the affordable housing, which h one thirty four is primarily geared towards. It just happens to be a good vehicle for, hopefully, a solution for a situation that we have got going here. I did speak with representative Kimbo prior to this, and he did mention that this this would be a good avenue to or build to kind of try to tackle this with. I'm gonna present you guys with a timeline just to kinda give you a little bit of background of what's happened over the course of years with this situation, and I'm gonna start in two thousand fifteen. So in two thousand fifteen, North Branch Vineyards leased thirteen point seven acres in Middlesex, from a gentleman named Eugene Jocelyn, to plant our vineyard. The thirteen point seven acres was part of a forty eight acre, parcel of land. The entire forty eight acres was enrolled in current use prior to North Branch Vineyards leasing the, the thirteen point seven acres. The gentleman I bought it from was a dairy, farmer for years and just happened to have his land in current use, and it worked well for us. Because of the time and the financial commitments to develop this property as a vineyard, this was a multiyear lease, so we leased it for many years. The lease also included an irrevocable option for North Branch Vineyards to purchase the thirteen point seven acres. Between the lease and the option, North Branch Vineyards obtained significant control of the thirteen point seven acres when the agreement was signed. So a few years have gone by now. In two thousand eighteen, I unfortunately, Eugene Joslin passed away, and his son purchased the entire forty eight acres from his two sisters. At that time, Randy reenrolled the entire forty eight acres into the current use program without penalties because the parcel renamed remained in the Joslin family. So as long as it remained in the family, no penalties were occurred. In twenty twenty, Randy got a municipal subdivision permit, because we did ask that we could start exercising our right to purchase the land from him. So there was a long process involved. So, again, in twenty twenty, we started the municipal subdivision permit to split the thirteen point seven acres, so he could sell it to us. In January twenty one, Randy got a state subdivision wastewater permit to subdivide the property. He recorded the permits and subdivision plan in the land records. At that time, the current use program contacted Randy again and let him know that the subdivided the property and triggered the land use, change tax, the l u c t tax. With the help, with Randy, with my help, Randy was able to reenroll that land into current use because I was farming the land, and I did qualify as a farmer for what the state uses as the standards for qualifying farmers. So finally, in twenty twenty three, we were able to purchase land. So in thirteen point seven acres was conveyed from Randy to the McCann's North French Vineyards. I sent an application in to keep the thirteen point seven acres enrolled in current use. Soon after, we were contacted by the Vermont Department of Taxes and were told that the that the thirteen point seven acres had been withdrawn from current use effective on the date of the property that was transferred to us and that we owe an LUCT tax of ten percent or frame frame market value that equivulated to fourteen thousand seven hundred and ninety four dollars regardless of whether we reenrolled the property into current use. So I'm just gonna give you a quick briefing here, but I may wanna come back to a paragraph from the from the title itself. But because we yes. You had a question. [Representative John O'Brien]: Yes. Was staying in agriculture continuously. [John McCann]: Never once left agriculture. And that's I'm gonna come back with a a big section on that, and that's I think that's the the biggest, part of this here. But according to the tax department, we owe the LUCD LUCT because we had developed the property under thirty two VSA three seven five two paragraph five b, which says in relevant part, development also means, the subdivision of a parcel of land into two or more parcels regardless of whether the change in use actually occurs where one or more of the resulting parcels contains less than twenty five acres. If we had purchased twenty five point one acres, this would be a moot point. We wouldn't have any problem with this. So what I really wanna go back now is is go into the title and kinda finish off that paragraph just to kind of make a point here. [Chair David Durfee]: Can you say the title again? [John McCann]: Yeah. The title is title thirty two, taxation and finance, chapter one twenty four, sub chapter one. And this is, thirty two VSA three seven five two, and this is paragraph five b. So, again, a continuance on that. It says, but if the subdivision is solely the result of a transfer to one or more of a spouse, ex spouse in a divorce settlement, parent, grandparent, child, grandchild, niece, nephew, or sibling, or transfer or the surviving spouse of any of the foregoing, then development shall not apply to any portion of the newly created parcel. So, really, what it's doing is is it's if it never changes the family, it's not a problem. But if a farmer wants to continue to farm it, it's a problem. So now I'll kinda go back in unless you have a question here. [Representative Richard Nelson]: Yeah. Were you able to you're harvesting grapes at this time? I am. And and it you're is is that heading up on north on twelve? [John McCann]: No. So yes and no. Our winery is on twelve, but the one that you see just above there is Mount Pillier Vineyards. Okay. We're actually just off Terrace Street. So Portal Road, we have the thirteen point seven acres just it's about two miles from here. [Representative Richard Nelson]: Alright. So you're harvesting your grapes, and I assume you were making the two thousand dollars? I am. Yes. I hope so. Yes. Setting up. So you should qualify in all [John McCann]: We do. And I if if you'd like, I could read that section to you from the title itself. [Representative Richard Nelson]: Heard it yesterday Yeah. The day before. [John McCann]: Yeah. As long as you're anything under twenty five acres, if you're making a minimum of two thousand dollars, you qualify as a farmer. [Representative Richard Nelson]: Make two thousand dollars having a mistake. [John McCann]: Yes. Yeah. I mean, we we do a value added product. It's wine. So, you know, it's twenty dollars a bottle. [Representative Richard Nelson]: And are your buildings exempt now or not? Because that's an agricultural activity using your own product. If I had buildings, yes. But right now, it's solely a vineyard. There's no buildings on it whatsoever. So your wine your grapes go to [John McCann]: Our grapes go to Mount Pillier to our winery, which is within city limits. Okay. You have you have a winery Yes. Office. [Representative Richard Nelson]: So it's neat and clean and there's no No structures. And so you don't have to prove you're you're you pay a municipal tax and everything down at [John McCann]: your wire? I do. Yes. Yes. I do. [Representative John O'Brien]: Representative Brian. So what was the larger parcel originally? [John McCann]: So it was originally forty eight acres. [Representative John O'Brien]: K. And then that farmer subdivided to thirteen point seven and kept ownership of it. [John McCann]: Correct. [Representative John O'Brien]: And and they were farming it or you were farming it? [John McCann]: I was farming it. I had a lease. [Representative John O'Brien]: Right. And you and by that, you can be under twenty five as long as it's leased to a farmer Correct. [Representative Richard Nelson]: He could benefit. Right. So that's [John McCann]: the that's really the the the main root here is he benefited from me keeping it in current use for him. I didn't see any cost savings in terms of taxes or whatever. [Chair David Durfee]: Where where in the statute does it say that, [Representative John O'Brien]: you know, you buy it. It's it's the twenty five, but it's agricultural, and you're making the two thousand dollars, whether it's leased or or farmed to buy that exact [John McCann]: farmer. Right. So [Representative Richard Nelson]: Why is [John McCann]: that? The statute in the statue, under that same three seven five two paragraph, it talks about under twenty five acres that you qualify for a farm, and you can put it into current use. [Brecknoff]: Yeah. That's not the problem. [John McCann]: It's if it changed ownerships, whether it stays in farming or not. That's where the penalty comes into play. Now and here's the real kicker is the penalty should have come from the person who subdivided the land to sell it to us. Yeah. That's not how the tax department sees it. They see it as we purchased it. We're developing it. We have to pay the tax on it. [Chair David Durfee]: This is a hot potato we I think we heard yesterday. I think we heard that reference, you know, that I I terminology. [Representative Richard Nelson]: But they did develop it. That's Right. Pumrall. That's [Chair David Durfee]: Still got fines growing on it. And did you are you enrolled now? Did you [John McCann]: Well, no. Just so it got kicked out. [Chair David Durfee]: Can you reenroll it? [John McCann]: I can reenroll it, but here's the kicker. I have hired an attorney. And as of February last year, we appealed this. We just got a letter yesterday in the mail that this appeal process is coming to an end, which, unfortunately, we didn't quite get to you guys before that letter got to me. But I've asked my attorney to somehow try to extend that appeal process a little bit more so maybe we can work through this. So the state, not only has it been in an appeal process for over a year, but while it's been in that appeal process, I've been gaining penalties and fees, huge penalties, thousands of dollars. So the original fourteen thousand, I'm over twenty thousand dollars in pencils and fees now. [Representative Richard Nelson]: So you didn't write the check? [John McCann]: Because I don't have the money to write the check. [Representative Richard Nelson]: And and you're in an appeal process. You shouldn't. [John McCann]: In the appeal process, to me, in an appeal process, all pending fees and fees should be on hold until the appeal process is over. [Representative Richard Nelson]: Yeah. And then if anything, it should be just interest. Correct. So [Chair David Durfee]: Is it so because you were appealing, you did not reenroll, or is there is there something [John McCann]: So because right. So because I went into the appeal process, they kicked me out of current use. I submitted the paper to reenroll it into current use. But at that time, they said because we're in the appeal process, they weren't going to reenroll it into current use. So now I am paying full fair fair market value property taxes on that property. I'm not even getting the benefit of an agricultural piece of land. [Representative Richard Nelson]: Yeah. But it's bunkers cheap. It's Middlesex. Right? Yeah. [John McCann]: So it's still two thousand dollars a year. Because there's no buildings or structures on it. If there was a building or structure on it, you know, then we're talking ten, fifteen, twenty thousand dollars in taxes. So alright. So as you can imagine, entirely surprised by this. First and foremostly first and foremost importantly, we did not sub subdivide the land. The previous landowner was the one who subdivided the land. When it was carved off as part as lease, to us second, when he applied for received and recorded the subdivision permits. And lastly, when he conveyed the land to us, Randy was the only one who enrolled the property in current use and benefited from the lower tax rate under the program. So that was kind of my main point there is we didn't benefit from any of any of this. Second, the commodity, grapes, has not changed between the time the parcel was leased and the part and purchased. The parcel is not being developed. It is and will continue to be farmland. There is no change in use. This means the tax department is penalizing me as a small farmer simply for managing to gather sufficient resources to buy instead of lease my farmland. Just at the point where my agricultural operation is becoming financially stable, the tax department is destabilizing it with a significant penalty. The purpose of current use program is to encourage agricultural use of land. Losing or imposing the penalty against me as a farmer for being able to buy the farmland has exactly the opposite effect. Indeed, a penalty of this amount could make farming the property unfeasible, could force me to stop farming the property, not enroll in current use, and sell the property to a developer. So, really, the way to to make money on this is to turn around and sell it. [Representative Richard Nelson]: This is instead of on one thirty four, this has more to do with Bridgeport, Phil. You know, being able to lessen the acreage and lower the penalties and and and the requirements of how much money you have to make to be able to be in for dues. Right now, it's fifty percent. You have to make fifty percent of your income as a farmer. Yes. Representative Burr brought a bill that drops it down to twenty five percent and also takes away some of that acreage amount. [John McCann]: Well, it's funny because that's one of my suggestion is to remove some of that acreage amount. [Representative John O'Brien]: It goes from ten to six percent. It's yeah. [Chair David Durfee]: I mean, it it's a slightly different twist on, I think, anything that we've heard up to this point. [John McCann]: And I imagine if this bill moves forward, it's gonna go to his committee. Right? Because he's in senate senate ag? No. Greg Burke. Oh, he's in here. Okay. Oh, shoot. He's tapping [Brecknoff]: through it. [John McCann]: Okay. He's tapping through it. [Representative Richard Nelson]: He's he's become the current use expert. [John McCann]: Well, I have been a current use expert now for almost three years because I've been battling this for so long. [Representative John O'Brien]: Representative O'Brien. So so there in in statute, since you must be really familiar with it now, it says, like, if if it's twenty five acre parcel or above, right, this transaction you had, no problem. No problem. [Chair David Durfee]: But [John McCann]: And if it's twenty five acres and under, as long as I'm a relative, it's no problem. But it's supposed to But it's a problem if you're a farmer trying to farm the land. [Representative Richard Nelson]: It's supposed to be, though, if you're making two thousand dollars an acre from the land. And we heard some vent from renters earlier. You guys got the most lucrative market in the world. [John McCann]: Except for in twenty twenty three because you weren't here for that. So we lost all our grapes. And and it's been two years since we've been able to harvest anything. So it's lucrative when mother nature is on your side. [Representative Richard Nelson]: That's that's farming. [John McCann]: That is farming. So and and we definitely accept that as as being grape growers in this state. So [Chair David Durfee]: did you have more testimony, John? [Kate Wachman]: I got [Representative Richard Nelson]: a little bit more. Okay. Why don't you go ahead? Yeah. Sure. [John McCann]: I just wanna I'm gonna quote something from the Agency of Agriculture and Food and Markets. It says, according from the state of Vermont, AG Agency of Ag and Food Markets, most farms in Vermont and across the country are small. Looking back twenty years to the two thousand and two census, we had six thousand five hundred and seventy one farms, about the same as today, but fifteen oh eight were dairies. Nearly a thousand farms have shifted from dairy to other products like grapes, making agriculture more diverse. We now have seven hundred and forty four farms selling vegetables, four hundred and seventy one farms selling berries, five hundred and seven farms in greenhouse and nurseries, four hundred and forty one in orchards and vineyards, and two hundred and sixty six farms selling Christmas trees. I added this data to show that farming in Vermont continues to change in both size and commodity. It doesn't necessarily take a hundred plus acres to run a farm. It can be merely ten. So indeed, Vermont needs more affordable housing, and h one thirty four makes perfect sense to waive the LUCT for this need. However, we also need to make changes to help Vermont continue to farm. So my two suggestions for this, one of them is very simply, remove the whole paragraph thirty two VSA three seven five two five b, which basically takes that whole twenty five acres or less out. And the second one, which is probably a little bit cleaner and maybe a little bit easier to swallow, is to just remove that twenty five acres down to something less, like ten acres or two acres. I know most municipalities want at least two acres to build a house on, which is then developed. So anything above two acres could still be farming. What was that title again? Statute? Yeah. So I'll give you the whole thing here. It's title thirty two, chapter one twenty four. Second. Title thirty two. Chapter one twenty four. And it's thirty two VSA. Thirty [Representative Richard Nelson]: two. VSA. [John McCann]: Three seven five two. And the paragraph that I'm talking about is five b. So if we just removed five b from the statute, all of this would be done. It'd be easy and clean bill. [Chair David Durfee]: We've got if you keep submitting your written testimony, we've got this with all the references so [Brecknoff]: we can go back and [Chair David Durfee]: and revisit that. John? Yeah. Just a [Representative John O'Brien]: hypothetical junk. In this original parcel, what if that family had sold you twelve acres from the land they still own to go with year thirteen and you wanted to enroll as twenty five? Would it be you had the same penalty? [John McCann]: Yeah. I would add two penalties because they're both under twenty five. [Representative John O'Brien]: Even though you want Even though [John McCann]: I would combine them back together. That's that's what the tax department sees it. [Brecknoff]: Yeah. [John McCann]: Yeah. They it's really, really bad That it needs a lot of help. Now I've my just a this is just a little reference here. So my attorney tells me yesterday, because I told him I was coming and testify today on this, and he says, well, really won't matter for you because the tax department's not gonna retro active any of this, even if it gets passed. And I said, Well, wait, why am I even spinning my wheels then? Well, I'm here to also help future farmers, because it is it's a huge problem. But, we also if we can get something passed, we can also go back and maybe negotiate with the tax department and say, listen. This bill passed. This was always a problem. We're just seeing it. What can we do to help alleviate some of this pressure? So but [Chair David Durfee]: Okay. Really appreciate it. Again Really helpful to hear an actual illustration. And, I'm sorry that you're in [Representative Richard Nelson]: Well, in our situation. [Representative John O'Brien]: Who would [John McCann]: have thought growing grapes in Vermont would be in this much trouble? [Representative Richard Nelson]: Well, good luck with your bill process, and maybe they'll look at that two thousand dollars that you're under the twenty five acre, and they'll say no. Enabled to have already the current use just to [John McCann]: make it just. Again, I think they had no problem with me reenrolling. It's they it was black and white to them. It's out of twenty five and [Representative Richard Nelson]: It it it stayed in its same use. It's just like we bought the firm back. And Yeah. [John McCann]: No. I totally agree, and I appreciate what you're saying. So alright. [Chair David Durfee]: We're gonna take five minutes and then have we're gonna hear from ledge council on some of the changes that were made last year to to, land use law. Hey, John. Thank you. And the I think it'll be relevant to the conversation that we just had and, you know, big picture wise anyway. And when we're thinking about current use and changes that we might wanna make there. So let's just so we so that we have as much time with Alan as we possibly can. Let's just take five minutes to stretch and

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